The Irish diaspora

[Docere]

St. Patrick's Day tomorrow. Does the "Irish" community exist outside of a few pockets in the diaspora nowadays?

[xzmattzx]

In the US, there is no real Irish community. It's all Irish-American, meaning Americanized Irish. It's like how Chinese food in the US is not like Chinese food in China. You can't really tell who is Irish unless you look at the last name.

[Docere]

Right, different from Ireland obviously. But to what extent does an Irish-American subculture exist at this point?

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by Docere

Right, different from Ireland obviously. But to what extent does an Irish-American subculture exist at this point?

People of Irish ancestry (especially Irish Catholics) are generally proud of their heritage and achievements, but except for St. Patrick's Day usually don't make much of a show of it. Irish ethnic identity and pride usually doesn't reach the extent it sometimes does in people of Greek, Arab, Armenian, Italian, Jewish, Mexican, Japanese, Filipino, Vietnamese and Chinese heritage for example, in my opinion.

People of Irish ancestry, for example, usually don't go out of their way to help other people of Irish ancestry (although some do), as much as some other ethnicities do. What I term "ethnic nepotism" is fairly low among Irish (as it is among German and English-Americans), but present in some other groups, although there are exceptions.

But no hard and fast generalizations can be made. Everybody is an individual, and should be treated as an individual, not a member of a group. There are good and bad individuals in every group.

[Steely Dan]

Happy St. Paddy's day from the (wacky) land of the Chi-rish!

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

In the US, there is no real Irish community. It's all Irish-American, meaning Americanized Irish. It's like how Chinese food in the US is not like Chinese food in China. You can't really tell who is Irish unless you look at the last name.

I wouldn't say this is totally accurate for my neck of the woods. Of course there are plenty of Plastic Paddies out there, plenty of Celtic armband tats. But as recently as the last time the Irish economy was in trouble (2010-2013), over 20,000 Irish moved to the US. And most of them moved to Massachusetts and New York. Most of them are in their 20s, and a surprisingly high number of them overstay their tourist or summer work visas; this became an "unexpected" side effect of Trump's early ICE round-ups.

I have first cousins born and raised in Ireland, and I was rarely the only person in class in this situation throughout my school life in suburban Boston when we did our family history presentations.

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by Shawn

I wouldn't say this is totally accurate for my neck of the woods. Of course there are plenty of Plastic Paddies out there, plenty of Celtic armband tats. But as recently as the last time the Irish economy was in trouble (2010-2013), over 20,000 Irish moved to the US. And most of them moved to Massachusetts and New York. Most of them are in their 20s, and a surprisingly high number of them overstay their tourist or summer work visas; this became an "unexpected" side effect of Trump's early ICE round-ups.

I have first cousins born and raised in Ireland, and I was rarely the only person in class in this situation throughout my school life in suburban Boston when we did our family history presentations.

But they likely interspersed into the general population just like the British that live in the US. There is very little common culture to share. Maybe they still watch TV from Europe or something, but they are living in the same apartment buildings or same subdivisions as any American.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

But they likely interspersed into the general population just like the British that live in the US. There is very little common culture to share. Maybe they still watch TV from Europe or something, but they are living in the same apartment buildings or same subdivisions as any American.

Again, somewhat. Speaking English natively makes everything much easier of course. But just because you speak English and look like a bunch of Irish-Americans doesn't mean you forget about your RLI team or GAA club. And you're only going to be able to watch these at pubs in places like Southie. Where can you buy Taytos or Lyons or Barry's? And not to overplay this, but you need a network when you don't have papers. An old but good BBC article which touches on just this point.

[JManc]

"Irish American" identity still Pretty strong in the Northeast and Midwest.

[BnaBreaker]

Most people, I think, celebrated St. Patty's day over the weekend. Hopefully that was the last big hurrah for most in terms of going out in big groups and getting drunk, at least until this whole situation starts to pick up again.

[isaidso]

15% of Canadians identify as Irish-Canadian. This number jumps between 20-30% in Atlantic Canada. The most famous St. Patrick's Day parade is the one in Montreal. It's one of the oldest and largest in North America and has been held yearly without interruption since 1824. St Patrick's Day itself, however, has been celebrated in Montreal since as far back as 1759 by Irish soldiers in the Montreal Garrison following the British conquest of New France.

Montreal St. Patrick's Day Parade


https://dailyhive.com/montreal/montr...rade-cancelled

In Toronto, the Irish-Canadian community heavily influenced the city and remains fairly prominent. Although not Irish today, the Cabbagetown neighbourhood (I live 2 blocks away) was once the epicentre for the Irish community. Back then it was a very poor and the Irish migrants who lived there planted cabbage in front of their houses as a source of food. They even have their own Cabbagetown flag.

Toronto's Cabbagetown neighbourhood


https://i1.wp.com/www.kikucorner.com...size=600%2C804

[Darkoshvilli]

Originally Posted by isaidso

15% of Canadians identify as Irish-Canadian. This number jumps between 20-30% in Atlantic Canada. The most famous St. Patrick's Day parade is the one in Montreal. It's one of the oldest and largest in North America and has been held yearly without interruption since 1824.

Montreal St. Patrick's Day Parade


https://dailyhive.com/montreal/montr...rade-cancelled

r]

Montreal - Nearing 200 years of uninterrupted st patricks parades.

Corona - "hold my beer"

[Docere]

Originally Posted by isaidso

15% of Canadians identify as Irish-Canadian. This number jumps between 20-30% in Atlantic Canada.

St. John's and the Avalon Peninsula of Newfoundland is probably the most "Irish" place outside of Ireland by descent.

Newfoundland Irish are actually pre-Famine, so it's a rather different situation from New England where you had a massive Irish influx 200 years after the ancestors of the Yankees came.

And it's actually undercounted in the census, since a lot write "Canadian." The city is 45% Catholic but only one-third report Irish origins. Virtually all Catholics there are of Irish ancestry.

[Crawford]

There's still an Irish (not Irish-American) concentration on the Bronx/Yonkers border. Katonah Avenue in Woodlawn (Bronx) and McLean Ave. in adjacent SE Yonkers are the main commercial streets. There are still immigration centers, Irish papers for sale, etc. Lots of construction workers with no papers are Irish, even today. Construction pays extremely well here.

Thirty years ago, however, there was an Irish (not Irish-American) concentration that extended southward, all the way to Fordham Rd. in the Bronx. Norwood was heavily Irish until maybe 15 years ago. Still a few remnants. Bainbridge Ave. in Norwood was very Irish until recently. Still a couple of old man bars.

There's also a decent-sized community in Woodside, Queens.

Of course, assimilated Irish-American communities are everywhere in the NE corridor between Philly and Boston.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Crawford

There's still an Irish (not Irish-American) concentration on the Bronx/Yonkers border. Katonah Avenue in Woodlawn (Bronx) and McLean Ave. in adjacent SE Yonkers are the main commercial streets. There are still immigration centers, Irish papers for sale, etc. Lots of construction workers with no papers are Irish, even today. Construction pays extremely well here.

Woodlawn is mentioned in the BBC article I quoted. The under-the-table construction job situation is similar in Mass. Especially during the summer when guys come over for tourism jobs on the Cape and discover they can get paid 4x as much building houses.

[Acajack]

Quebec is actually home to the only predominantly* French-speaking Irish diaspora in the world.

(*A significant of minority or Irish-descended Quebecers are still anglophones, but the majority are now native French speakers. Quite a few speak very little English at all.)

Their historical presence here is related to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjz8A5N055I

Though many Irish also integrated with francophones outside of that crisis. They were simply immigrants who cozied up more to the French Canadian Catholics more than to the local anglos (generally Protestants), in spite of the fact that almost all of the Irish spoke English as either a first or second language.

The house across the street from ours owing to family reconstitutions and compound surnames actually has three Irish surnames present in it. Every single person living there is a Québécois francophone however.

Not to be disrespectful but Irishness in Quebec is for the vast majority very much a "Plastic Paddy" thing. More about drinking Guinness, listening to the Cranberries (or maybe The Pogues) and raising a glass on St. Patrick's Day. Iconic Irish stuff like its literary greats or GAA football are largely unknown here even among the Irish-descended.

Though maybe I am being too dismissive? I guess that the Irish presence has clearly left an influence on Quebec folk and even popular music, for example.

I mean, what else can one make of this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxJwRJlS890

[Steely Dan]

we have the "Chi-rish" here in the windy city.

who have WAY more to do with public urination and turning rivers green than anything involving ireland itself.

i myself am a significant, but not precisely known, percentage of Chi-rish.



source: http://www.strangecargo.com/chirish-crest

[Obadno]

The Irish...

Yuk,

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Woodlawn, Bronx is an enclave for Irish expats/immigrants. Not Irish-Americans. I have Irish friends there who are carpenters... they make tons of money working construction in the city. My cousin's husband and his Irish buddies largely built the lobby of 1WTC.

edit: just saw Crawford's post

Originally Posted by Crawford

There's still an Irish (not Irish-American) concentration on the Bronx/Yonkers border. Katonah Avenue in Woodlawn (Bronx) and McLean Ave. in adjacent SE Yonkers are the main commercial streets. There are still immigration centers, Irish papers for sale, etc. Lots of construction workers with no papers are Irish, even today. Construction pays extremely well here.

Thirty years ago, however, there was an Irish (not Irish-American) concentration that extended southward, all the way to Fordham Rd. in the Bronx. Norwood was heavily Irish until maybe 15 years ago. Still a few remnants. Bainbridge Ave. in Norwood was very Irish until recently. Still a couple of old man bars.

There's also a decent-sized community in Woodside, Queens.

Of course, assimilated Irish-American communities are everywhere in the NE corridor between Philly and Boston.

Do the Irish and Irish-Americans often socialize together or live apart? Sometimes newer waves of immigrants choose to go where the older waves used to, even if they're now assimilated, but sometimes they don't, as they don't feel any connection.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Do the Irish and Irish-Americans often socialize together or live apart? Sometimes newer waves of immigrants choose to go where the older waves used to, even if they're now assimilated, but sometimes they don't, as they don't feel any connection.

That corner of the NW Bronx/Yonkers was Irish before the more recent waves. It was actually a much larger community in, say, 1980. Irish, not Irish American.

Really all of the West Bronx north of Fordham Rd. was heavily Irish until very recently. Riverdale was mostly Irish, now mostly Orthodox Jewish. Excepting the Irish Woodlawn area, and some Bangladeshis and Albanians, almost everywhere else north of Fordham Rd. is majority Hispanic these days.

But I think the present community is fairly stable. In 30 years, I think it will still be an enclave. It's fairly nice, has good schools and is kinda an island off by itself, surrounded by cemeteries and parks.