Rural Commuter Rail

[FFX-ME]

The ridiculous thing is that most people here and otherwise seem to miss the point that moose's model isn't like what we've seen before. It is 100% funded by the private sector unlike conventional transit which is heavily payed by taxes. There's no point in arguing about a price you don't have to pay. That's equivalent to someone giving you a house and then rejecting the offer saying the house is too expensive.

Jim Watson's objection isn't based on funds, it's based on this providing service outside the city of Ottawa limits. I on the other hand think this is a good thing. Everywhere in Canada small rural areas are turning into ghost towns, this type of project would promote existing communities and allow them to continue existing.

http://www.lfpress.com/2013/12/06/in...lection-cycles

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

The ridiculous thing is that most people here and otherwise seem to miss the point that moose's model isn't like what we've seen before. It is 100% funded by the private sector unlike conventional transit which is heavily payed by taxes. There's no point in arguing about a price you don't have to pay. That's equivalent to someone giving you a house and then rejecting the offer saying the house is too expensive.

Jim Watson's objection isn't based on funds, it's based on this providing service outside the city of Ottawa limits. I on the other hand think this is a good thing. Everywhere in Canada small rural areas are turning into ghost towns, this type of project would promote existing communities and allow them to continue existing.

http://www.lfpress.com/2013/12/06/in...lection-cycles

Might be because no commuter rail service in the world is entirely funded by the private sector and it would seem odd that a service connecting a few small towns to a medium sized city would be the first one anywhere. And the types of funding models they're talking about (developers kicking in, kickstarter type small shares sold in small towns) are a mechanism to raise a few hundred k, not a mechanism to raise tens or hundreds of millions to establish a 400km rail network.

Anyway, railways (including the trillium line) are federally regulated, so moose can go to the CTC to gain access to PoW bridge or to build a new bridge if the mayor is being uncooperative and their business model is viable.

I wonder if Rod Bryden is involved with this.

[FFX-ME]

Why would it cost so much? Those are active railroads with existing stations that are in use and maintained by other companies. All they need is to rent the rails and buy locomotives (Minus the bridge of course).

Originally Posted by acottawa

Might be because no commuter rail service in the world is entirely funded by the private sector and it would seem odd that a service connecting a few small towns to a medium sized city would be the first one anywhere. And the types of funding models they're talking about (developers kicking in, kickstarter type small shares sold in small towns) are a mechanism to raise a few hundred k, not a mechanism to raise tens or hundreds of millions to establish a 400km rail network.

Anyway, railways (including the trillium line) are federally regulated, so moose can go to the CTC to gain access to PoW bridge or to build a new bridge if the mayor is being uncooperative and their business model is viable.

I wonder if Rod Bryden is involved with this.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Why would it cost so much? Those are active railroads with existing stations that are in use and maintained by other companies. All they need is to rent the rails and buy locomotives (Minus the bridge of course).

Because the new entrant would have to pay for the necessary upgrades. The Via line is mostly single track and struggles with capacity now and would probably have to be upgraded in several sections. The trillium line is single track and would probably have to be doubled or tripled (including a very expensive tunnel under Dow's lake), the wakefield line is currently washed out and needs millions (which is why the steam train isn't going back). The PoW bridge needs tens of millions in estimates (I think the city has exact costings) and the other routes have not been used for passenger service in decades (if ever) and need major upgrades to make them suitable for passenger rail. Look at the Metrolinx website, projects to expand or upgrade rail service cost tens or hundreds of millions of dollars.

Plus rolling stock is pretty expensive and you would need stations, park and ride facilities, etc.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Because the new entrant would have to pay for the necessary upgrades. The Via line is mostly single track and struggles with capacity now and would probably have to be upgraded in several sections. The trillium line is single track and would probably have to be doubled or tripled (including a very expensive tunnel under Dow's lake), the wakefield line is currently washed out and needs millions (which is why the steam train isn't going back). The PoW bridge needs tens of millions in estimates (I think the city has exact costings) and the other routes have not been used for passenger service in decades (if ever) and need major upgrades to make them suitable for passenger rail. Look at the Metrolinx website, projects to expand or upgrade rail service cost tens or hundreds of millions of dollars.

Plus rolling stock is pretty expensive and you would need stations, park and ride facilities, etc.

Totally agree!

We already have capacity issues on the Trillium Line.

What are we doing? Smiths Falls only has 9,000 residents and has never really functioned as an Ottawa suburb. How many commuter trains can this possibly support? One? But even one will interfere with VIA operations and Trillium Line operations and you can not expect the city or VIA to cover this cost. Even the cost of one or two additional sidings and corresponding signaling upgrades will throw the financing model right of the water.

[waterloowarrior]

I think the line coming from the east has huge potential. For the shortest trips, Alexandria to Ottawa is 43 minutes, Casselman is 24 minutes. You can quickly hop on the Confederation Line after that to downtown, Tunneys, etc. Further improvements on the line are planned. Much more attractive than a long drive or bus ride from Carleton Place or Kemptville.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

I think the line coming from the east has huge potential. For the shortest trips, Alexandria to Ottawa is 43 minutes, Casselman is 24 minutes. You can quickly hop on the Confederation Line after that to downtown, Tunneys, etc. Further improvements on the line are planned. Much more attractive than a long drive or bus ride from Carleton Place or Kemptville.

I don't think it has huge potential at all. There is not enough population on the corridor and Highway 417 already provides quick and generally uncongested access into Ottawa most of the time.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I don't think it has huge potential at all. There is not enough population on the corridor and Highway 417 already provides quick and generally uncongested access into Ottawa most of the time.

I think you could easily get 10000 people to use that corridor. Commuters from Embrun, Russell, Alexandria, Casselman, St. Isidore, Vars, Limoge, Moose Creek etc are numerous. I used to do that commute every day and it can get prety congested. Sometimes is bumper to bumber before the Anderson exit. A long time ago when this idea was pitched I was thrilled, I would have definitely taken it.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

I think you could easily get 10000 people to use that corridor. Commuters from Embrun, Russell, Alexandria, Casselman, St. Isidore, Vars, Limoge, Moose Creek etc are numerous. I used to do that commute every day and it can get prety congested. Sometimes is bumper to bumber before the Anderson exit. A long time ago when this idea was pitched I was thrilled, I would have definitely taken it.

The entire county has a population of 85k, 10k taking a train to Ottawa every day would seem a little high.

Via offers commuter packages for people in existing communities it serves. Perhaps as a first step the proponents could encourage commuting by via.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by Mr.Flintstone

If the prince of wales bridge get converted to pedestrian bridge. That will be another mistake for the capital region. Its too obvious, just put an LRT train that goes all the way to gatineau.

Absolutely!!!

[waterloowarrior]

Even a morning VIA train that stopped in Casselman would be a big improvement - leaving the village just before 8 and arriving downtown by 830 after a transfer at the Train station. I hope one of the results of the Eastern Ontario Growth Plan is the introduction of GO Transit to Ottawa (bus routes could still be operated by 417 Bus Lines, Bergeron, etc but the system would be fully integrated) or at least the applicable provincial funding and regional mandate for OC Transpo.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

I think the line coming from the east has huge potential. For the shortest trips, Alexandria to Ottawa is 43 minutes, Casselman is 24 minutes. You can quickly hop on the Confederation Line after that to downtown, Tunneys, etc. Further improvements on the line are planned. Much more attractive than a long drive or bus ride from Carleton Place or Kemptville.

I think that the old CP route from Bells Corners to Stittsville, Carleton Place, Almonte, Pakenham and Arnprior have more potential than the eastern routes. The tracks would have to be relaid but all the bridges are still in place. When phase 2 is complete the access to the Confederation Line LRT would be just as easy if a station is built on Woodroffe at the CN underpass. It is proposed that a maintenance yard be built on the east side of Woodroffe parallel to the existing CN right of way. The cost would be minimal to build a station there.
There could also be a stop where the Via Rail tracks cross the Trillium Line providing access to Carleton U, Tunney's Pasture, Airport via the Trillium Line and the offices around Heron and Riverside. This could also provide a direct route to Gatineau via the Trillium Line. A final stop at the Via Station would also provide access to the east side of downtown and offices near Blair Road.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I think that the old CP route from Bells Corners to Stittsville, Carleton Place, Almonte, Pakenham and Arnprior have more potential than the eastern routes. The tracks would have to be relaid but all the bridges are still in place. When phase 2 is complete the access to the Confederation Line LRT would be just as easy if a station is built on Woodroffe at the CN underpass. It is proposed that a maintenance yard be built on the east side of Woodroffe parallel to the existing CN right of way. The cost would be minimal to build a station there.
There could also be a stop where the Via Rail tracks cross the Trillium Line providing access to Carleton U, Tunney's Pasture, Airport via the Trillium Line and the offices around Heron and Riverside. This could also provide a direct route to Gatineau via the Trillium Line. A final stop at the Via Station would also provide access to the east side of downtown and offices near Blair Road.

Definitely agree about the higher ridership potential, I just think the east is more doable given existing infrastructure and cheaper land for stations. I like your ideas about the connections to the LRT and Gatineau.

Ultimately, the province needs to step in or I don't think this will happen as there is no incentive for the city to participate. Also, if they do want to limit scattered rural county growth through the proposed growth plan they need to give an incentive to density the outlying major towns and villages.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I think that the old CP route from Bells Corners to Stittsville, Carleton Place, Almonte, Pakenham and Arnprior have more potential than the eastern routes.

If you're going to revive the old CPR line, I'd say go south from Carleton Place to Smiths Falls and then possibly on to Perth.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I think that the old CP route from Bells Corners to Stittsville, Carleton Place, Almonte, Pakenham and Arnprior have more potential than the eastern routes. The tracks would have to be relaid but all the bridges are still in place. When phase 2 is complete the access to the Confederation Line LRT would be just as easy if a station is built on Woodroffe at the CN underpass. It is proposed that a maintenance yard be built on the east side of Woodroffe parallel to the existing CN right of way. The cost would be minimal to build a station there.
There could also be a stop where the Via Rail tracks cross the Trillium Line providing access to Carleton U, Tunney's Pasture, Airport via the Trillium Line and the offices around Heron and Riverside. This could also provide a direct route to Gatineau via the Trillium Line. A final stop at the Via Station would also provide access to the east side of downtown and offices near Blair Road.

You are reviving parts of the Chiarelli plan that everybody was so anxious to toss out the window and stomp on for good measure.

I could be wrong, but I think they built a shopping centre at the railway junction in Carleton Place, where the Carleton Place railway station used to be. Talk about forward thinking!

Also, did they preserve the right of way at Ashton when Highway 7 was twinned?

I hear the NIMBY army starting to march in Stittsville and Kanata. They will lose their recreational pathway, heaven forbid.

Sadly, this is not going to happen, ever. The day they lifted the tracks back in the early 90s ended this dream. And for once, I agreed with Lowell Green at the time, who said that we will regret lifting those tracks. This happened just a few years before we started to think about rail transit.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I could be wrong, but I think they built a shopping centre at the railway junction in Carleton Place, where the Carleton Place railway station used to be. Talk about forward thinking!

The rail line is a bit north of there...
https://goo.gl/maps/DhzVHZDpdpA2

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I could be wrong, but I think they built a shopping centre at the railway junction in Carleton Place, where the Carleton Place railway station used to be. Talk about forward thinking!

The rail line is a bit north of there...
https://goo.gl/maps/DhzVHZDpdpA2

[lrt's friend]

I stand corrected. It was a roadway that they built down the old right of way.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

You are reviving parts of the Chiarelli plan that everybody was so anxious to toss out the window and stomp on for good measure.

I could be wrong, but I think they built a shopping centre at the railway junction in Carleton Place, where the Carleton Place railway station used to be. Talk about forward thinking!

Also, did they preserve the right of way at Ashton when Highway 7 was twinned?

I hear the NIMBY army starting to march in Stittsville and Kanata. They will lose their recreational pathway, heaven forbid.

Sadly, this is not going to happen, ever. The day they lifted the tracks back in the early 90s ended this dream. And for once, I agreed with Lowell Green at the time, who said that we will regret lifting those tracks. This happened just a few years before we started to think about rail transit.

Yes, the ROW was preserved at Ashton.

[OTSkyline]

As much as I'd like to see a "GO" transit system for Ottawa and eastern Ontario, its simply not warranted right now as there are very little communities in the surrounding area that would make it viable.

For example, in Toronto with GO, you have:
Niagara Falls (85,000)
St Catherines (135,000)
Hamilton (600,000)
Burlington (180,000)
Kitchener (225,000)
Barrie (140,000)
Pickering (90,000)
Oshawa (150,000)
Etc... Total of 1,600,000 potential commuters in surrounding area

In Ottawa, you have maybe:
Hawkesbury (12,000)
Clarence/Rockland (25,000)
Casselman (4,000)
Carleton Place (10,000)
Kemptville (4,000)
Arnprior (8,500)
Total of around 65,000 potential commuters - very little.

If Ottawa (approx. 1/5th of Toronto's population) had around 300,000 to 400,000 people in surrounding communities then it would make more sense to develop an eastern Ontario transit plan. But the reality it's mostly OTTAWA then nothing around... so the status quo (in my opinion) works fine for now.