CFL in the Maritimes

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

Moncton has never put together a bid for anything like the CWGs, so this line of reasoning is heavily flawed. Is it better to go to community college instead of getting rejected by Harvard then going to Princeton? If people in Halifax also aimed low enough there wouldn't be any failures there either.

I would not say that Moncton aims low.

2006 - Memorial Cup (widely considered to have been the most successful to that time)
2007 - CIS University Cup Hockey Championships
2008 - CIS University Cup Hockey Championships
2009 - World Men's Curling Championship (for the second time)
2010 - World Junior Championships in Athletics (will be the largest sporting event ever held in Atlantic Canada.)

'nuff said.

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I would not say that Moncton aims low.

2006 - Memorial Cup (widely considered to have been the most successful to that time)
2007 - CIS University Cup Hockey Championships
2008 - CIS University Cup Hockey Championships
2009 - World Men's Curling Championship (for the second time)
2010 - World Junior Championships in Athletics (will be the largest sporting event ever held in Atlantic Canada.)

'nuff said.

I think what hes trying to say is that most of those events dont even compare to the events that Halifax has held.

Halifax has been doing a lot better lately than people give it credit for. It's actually held much larger events, more frequently than Moncton has, but for some reason Moncton gets more praise for the events it's held.

I would LOVE to see Moncton even try to attempt an event as big as Tall Ships. it always attracts 750,000 to over a million people over the 5 days its held.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Wishblade

I would LOVE to see Moncton even try to attempt an event as big as Tall Ships. it always attracts 750,000 to over a million people over the 5 days its held.

I think all those tall ships would get stuck in the Petitcodiac River.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by someone123

Moncton has never put together a bid for anything like the CWGs, so this line of reasoning is heavily flawed. Is it better to go to community college instead of getting rejected by Harvard then going to Princeton? If people in Halifax also aimed low enough there wouldn't be any failures there either.

I don't think people in Halifax have a sense of entitlement, it just is what it is - a much bigger city than any other in the region with a lot more going on (including somewhat more beyond whitebread Wal-Mart/80's rock/football type culture that most of the region tends to be limited to). Halifax doesn't need Moncton to keep it on its toes, it needs to look to dozens of other cities around the planet that do many things in much better ways.

The CFL in Halifax isn't even a big deal locally (I don't know if it is in Moncton or not) and I'm not sure if the government should be paying for it. Reactions to the CWGs were also lukewarm. Personally I'd rather see the money invested in transit and other projects, although I don't mind if some goes into sports.

I do agree that Halifax should be working towards some major projects of some kind and that Peter Kelly is a terrible mayor.

Agreed we need a new mayor. I'm still really annoyed how the CWGS bid was just dropped. Maybe it was to expensive but just to drop out the way in which it happened was a bad move.

[Wishblade]

and just a question Someone,

I could have swore our airport handled 3.5 million last year?

[Haliguy]

It did... 3,469,062 passengers to be exact.

[ErickMontreal]

Moncton is no longer alone in the race.

Due to the interesting outcome of the market assesment studie, a group in Quebec city has been able to find more than half of the financing for a franchise. Moreover, the Provincial Government would invest 19-million dollars in a new stadium located in St-Augustin, the private sector will pay the balance required. (25 000-Seats)

[JasonL-Moncton]

Originally Posted by ErickMontreal

Moncton is no longer alone in the race.

Due to the interesting outcome of the market assesment studie, a group in Quebec city has been able to find more than half of the financing for a franchise. Moreover, the Provincial Government would invest 19-million dollars in a new stadium located in St-Augustin, the private sector will pay the balance required. (25 000-Seats)

but that still doesn't make the league "coast to coast" no matter how many in this fine country of ours thinks Canada stops at Quebec.

JL

[ErickMontreal]

Originally Posted by JasonL-Moncton

but that still doesn't make the league "coast to coast" no matter how many in this fine country of ours thinks Canada stops at Quebec.

JL

Of course, so that does not discredit Moncton by any means. I mean I see Ottawa, Quebec and likely Moncton within the league by 2012.

However, the time is come to seriously look at it in the aim to find interested people with deep pockets to invest in it.

[q12]

Moncton will never get a CFL team. I would make that bet any day. You will never get enough corporate sponsers to be stupid enough to invest in the smallest franchise in the history of the CFL. It's just a bad business decision, especially in today's economy. Cities like Quebec (+700,000), London (450,000), Halifax (400,000) make way more business sense and they may never see a team. Especially since Ottawa can't make a go of it. Sorry Moncton to destroy your hopes but your stadium is meaningless its a cheap piece of infrastructure that the only thing it has in common with a CFL stadium is it has a field. It only has a small amount of permanent seats in comparison to a real CFL stadium. A city with only 125,000 just doesn't make corporate sponsers drool, no matter how much crazy math moncton uses (ex: the stupid 3.5 hour drive math which might as well be a lifetime when your driving through the boring forest that is New Brunswick)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by q12

Cities like Quebec (+700,000), London (450,000), Halifax (400,000) make way more business sense and they may never see a team. Especially since Ottawa can't make a go of it.

Ottawa didn't make a go of it because of an undercapitalized ownership group that was not prepared to do what it takes to build a successful franchise. They decided to cut and run instead. I have no doubt that the first expansion team for the CFL will be a new Ottawa franchise. I also have little doubt that Quebec City will also get a franchise. With a metro population of about 650,000 and building public support, I think it would be a no brainer.

The only city Moncton is actually competing with for a CFL franchise is Halifax, and this would only be after Ottawa and Quebec City have already joined the league. The Halifax CMA is actually 372,858 which is really a little less than 3x the size of Moncton. This is still a significant size differential but not as great as what you have let on. We will have a superior stadium that could be expanded to CFL standards. (our stadium will be 20,000 seats, I see that the stadium they are talking about in Quebec City will only be a little larger than this at 25,000 seats). There are some deep pockets in Moncton and I think Moncton is a more sports minded city than Halifax. These factors count.

Originally Posted by q12

(ex: the stupid 3.5 hour drive math which might as well be a lifetime when your driving through the boring forest that is New Brunswick)

I still think the "three hour driving time" arguement has merit. With only eight home games in a season, out of towners could form a large portion of the fan base. No matter how you cut it, Moncton is more convenient to a larger portion of the Maritime population than is Halifax.

BTW, when I was younger, growing up in PEI and later, when I was living in Halifax, I used to consider New Brunswick as "that great void of nothingness that exists between the real Maritimes and the rest of the world. I have now lived in NB for nearly 20 years, and I am ashamed by my (formerly) poor opinion of this province.

Outsiders opinions of NB are in part shaped by the fact that our major highways pass through the forested interior, well away from our scenic coastlines and away from our agricultural valleys.

The misconception that NB is nothing but moose and muskeg is just that....a misconception. NB is more densely populated than you think. Westmoreland/Albert/Kent counties in the southeast (around Moncton) are about the same physical size as the HRM and hold nearly 200,000 people, which is more than half the population of the HRM.

Did you know that it is possible to drive the full distance between Moncton and Saint John through near continuous farmland! We are more than bogs, blackflies and black bears thank you very much!!


P.S. - 100th post in this thread!

[q12]

Your facts are laughable. It really makes no difference how you want to try to skew numbers on this board. That "Superior" stadium will have 8,500 permanent seats, not significant, end of story. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Moncton_Stadium). Metro Quebec is over 700,000 easily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_City). HRM was 372,679 in 2006 but is now closer to 390,000. However HRM does not include other parts of Metro Halifax in Hants and Lunenburg counties (examples include Elmsdale and Mount Uniacke all within less than a 30 min drive to downtown etc. and considered metro) Metro Halifax has now exceeded 400,000 and if you add Hants (40,000), Lunenburg (50,000) and parts of Colchester county(50,000) which would be equivelent to albert and kent counties your talking over 500,000. Moncton, Saint John and Fredericton combined still don't add up to Halifax. This is significant.

I'm not saying Halifax will get a team, I'm just saying Moncton won't.
There are not that many deep pockets in Moncton and more importantly none dumb enough to throw money at a CFL team regardless of where it is. Face it, the CFL has never been some sort of money tree even in large cities. Probably not the first place you want to invest when the ecomony is headed for the crapper.

Maybe you should get some people to show up to a Mount A college game and show some support for the closest good football team you've got. It's good football and probably the best you'll ever see in Moncton so enjoy it.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by q12

Your facts are laughable. HRM was 372,679 in 2006 but is now closer to 390,000. However HRM does not include other parts of Metro Halifax in Hants and Lunenburg counties (examples include Elmsdale and Mount Uniacke all within less than a 30 min drive to downtown etc. and considered metro) Metro Halifax has now exceeded 400,000 and if you add Hants (40,000), Lunenburg (50,000) and parts of Colchester county(50,000) which would be equivelent to albert and kent counties your talking over 500,000. Moncton, Saint John and Fredericton combined still don't add up to Halifax. This is significant.

You can drive to downtown Halifax (Barrington St.) from Elmsdale in 30 minutes, in rush hour traffic....really!! It takes me 25 minutes to drive across Moncton.

Sounds like you are the one employing creative statistics here.

We can both play this game. You say the Halifax CMA is now really 390,000. The updated (2008) CMA population estimate for Moncton is 131,000.

Since you have chosen to include nearby areas not formally included in the Halifax CMA as part of your population base, I choose also to include nearby towns like Shediac, Cap Pele and Sackville (which are quite definitely part of the Moncton economic region) as part of the "real" Moncton metropolitan area. Why StatsCan chose not to include them in the CMA I'll never know. Shediac is only 15 minutes from the Dieppe traffic circle and Sackville is only 25 minutes. If these communities are included, this boosts the metropolitan population of Moncton to about 145,000

But wait, you have also decided to include the rural commuter watershed extending into Colchester, Hants and Lunenburg counties to give an inflated population of 500,000 for the greater Halifax googleplex. To me, it sounds like you are including everyone living within about 75 minutes of downtown Halifax. If I do the same, I will claim all of Westmoreland/Albert/Kent as well as portions of Kings and Cumberland counties. I would therefore estimate that the Moncton regional population base to be about 230,000.

So again, comparing apples to apples (not oranges), Halifax remains between 2-3 times the size of Moncton. A significant difference yes, but not enough to make Halifax a truly dominant regional city in the same sense that Vancouver or Toronto is.

Moncton remains centrally based in the region and more accessible to sports fans from the remainder of NB as well as PEI. Using the "three hour rule", our catchment area is larger than Halifax's.

Do I really think that the CFL is coming to the Maritimes anytime soon.....no not really. Ottawa and Quebec City will get there first. I do believe however that there is a political imperative in the upper echelons of the CFL management that the league should be seen as being "pan-Canadian". It therefore is politically important for the league that a team eventually gets sited in our region.

When that time comes, I firmly believe that Moncton will be there at the table for the negotiations. Halifax has a natural population advantage but Moncton's advantage is location, location, location. Combine that with a proud sporting heritage, pre-existing facilities and an aggressive and committed civic administration and I don't think that Halifax should take anything for granted.

Remember; competition is good, percieved entitlement is bad. We look forward to debating your illustrious mayor Peter Kelly on this issue.

[someone123]

The size gap is undeniably pretty significant and the fact is that the nearby towns and rural areas are also more populated in the case of Halifax.

Like I've said before, the three hour catchment thing is a bit far-fetched since it actually includes the Halifax area within Moncton's total. It's also not even really that clear that it works out much in Moncton's favour.

People go on and on, especially in NB, about how Halifax is not "dominant" within the region, but the gap is pretty large. At the end of the day Halifax really is the national city for the Maritimes. It has the regional offices and attracts people from all over Canada (more than any other city aside from Calgary!) while Moncton has a lower profile and is growing due to intraprovincial migration.

At the end of the day I think even Moncton's success is proof that Halifax has become very dominant. Moncton is successful because it's a part of the central region of the Maritimes and closely aligned with Halifax. It really is a complementary city while Saint John was in direct competition and has experienced a huge relative decline.

[Dmajackson]

^Intersting information. It is nice to know that Halifax and Moncton both have a chance of stacking up against Regina. It pretty much comes down to if the CFL wants a guarenteed 500'000 person fan potential within an hour or if they are willing to risk three hours for over 1'000'000 potential fans. Of course I am bias towards Halifax getting it but if Moncton gets a team then I'll probably try to make it there for a game or to, its only a three hour drive and i have family living on the route anyways.

I've always thought of the Maritimes as a hockey crowd. Heck we invented the game. Just look at the Mooseheads (no offense to them), they aren't a particularly good team but they draw thousands of spectators every game. I've always thought of getting an NHL team before getting a CFL team. Does anyone know what type of numbers would be required for a NHL team instead of a CFL team?

BTW welcome to the forums "brettinhalifax"

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Bedford_DJ

^Intersting information. It is nice to know that Halifax and Moncton both have a chance of stacking up against Regina. It pretty much comes down to if the CFL wants a guarenteed 500'000 person fan potential within an hour or if they are willing to risk three hours for over 1'000'000 potential fans. Of course I am bias towards Halifax getting it but if Moncton gets a team then I'll probably try to make it there for a game or to, its only a three hour drive and i have family living on the route anyways.

I've always thought of the Maritimes as a hockey crowd. Heck we invented the game. Just look at the Mooseheads (no offense to them), they aren't a particularly good team but they draw thousands of spectators every game. I've always thought of getting an NHL team before getting a CFL team. Does anyone know what type of numbers would be required for a NHL team instead of a CFL team?

BTW welcome to the forums "brettinhalifax"

There are no official qualification criteria, but the smallest NHL markets (Buffalo, Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton) all have over 1 million people in their metro areas, plus lots more population beyond the immediate metro. You also need an arena that seats around 17,000 people with plenty of luxury boxes. Plus deep-pocketed ownership.

Consider that Quebec City and Winnipeg don’t have NHL teams at the moment and not that likely to get them back - and they are both considerably larger than Halifax.

Nothing against Halifax but the NHL there is likely just a pipe dream, unless the entire league implodes because of the losses in the U.S. South, sending a bunch of teams looking for new homes...

If I were Halifax I’d keep looking at the CFL.

[brettinhalifax]

account deleted

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

Thanks. Long time lurker... first time poster.

IMO, even Winnipeg and Quebec City are long shots to get NHL teams. Hamilton, K-W or a second team in Toronto or Montreal is a lot more likely. I agree with Acajack, NHL in Halifax is a pipe dream.

I did a spreadsheet about populations and major league sports in North America. Out of the 47 cities in North America with NHL, NFL, MLB or NBA teams (or multiple teams) the average is about 1.3 million people per team. Only 6 cities have less than 750,000 people per team. 3 of those (Buffalo, New Orleans and Nashville) are in real danger of losing one of their teams. Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa are IMO pretty much the smallest cities that can support an NHL team.

Nova Scotia is a pretty good football area especially considering there is no pro team out here. We have pretty good CIS football attendance at Acadia, SMU and St.FX. If there was a bigger stadium in Halifax, SMU might get 10,000+ to some games. As much as I'd like a CFL team in HFX, I've started to think smaller.

I'd love to see a 14,000 seat football stadium (expandable to 28,000) built, for Halifax to host the Vanier Cup on a regular basis and for the SMU football program to be marketed/run like the Laval Rouge et Or program. The R&O were ranked #1 for every week this year and their average attendance was over 14,000 a game in 2007. If SMU averages 12,000 per game and a stadium is already half built, then I bet the CFL comes knocking.

IMO it'll be a lot easier to get the gov't to fund construction of a 14,000 seat university stadium than a 28,000 seat CFL stadium.

That sounds like a good idea to me. SMU is our biggest crowd drawer, which is easy to tell by the amount of people that attend the home games.

I thought NHL would be a long-shot. I just thought the region that made the game should have something more than the Mooseheads.

This is slightly off topic but does anyone know the story with the Rainmen? Last year I heard something about the NBA but I can't remember what it was. They are probably the closest thing the region has to a professional team.

[kirjtc2]

The Rainmen were in the American Basketball Association last year, which was a total joke of a league....they tried to join the NBDL (the NBA's development league...an AHL sort of deal) but were turned down. They're in the Premier Basketball League now, which seems to be much better run.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

Thanks. Long time lurker... first time poster.

IMO, even Winnipeg and Quebec City are long shots to get NHL teams. Hamilton, K-W or a second team in Toronto or Montreal is a lot more likely. I agree with Acajack, NHL in Halifax is a pipe dream.

I did a spreadsheet about populations and major league sports in North America. Out of the 47 cities in North America with NHL, NFL, MLB or NBA teams (or multiple teams) the average is about 1.3 million people per team. Only 6 cities have less than 750,000 people per team. 3 of those (Buffalo, New Orleans and Nashville) are in real danger of losing one of their teams. Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa are IMO pretty much the smallest cities that can support an NHL team.

Nova Scotia is a pretty good football area especially considering there is no pro team out here. We have pretty good CIS football attendance at Acadia, SMU and St.FX. If there was a bigger stadium in Halifax, SMU might get 10,000+ to some games. As much as I'd like a CFL team in HFX, I've started to think smaller.

I'd love to see a 14,000 seat football stadium (expandable to 28,000) built, for Halifax to host the Vanier Cup on a regular basis and for the SMU football program to be marketed/run like the Laval Rouge et Or program. The R&O were ranked #1 for every week this year and their average attendance was over 14,000 a game in 2007. If SMU averages 12,000 per game and a stadium is already half built, then I bet the CFL comes knocking.

IMO it'll be a lot easier to get the gov't to fund construction of a 14,000 seat university stadium than a 28,000 seat CFL stadium.

First off Brett, welcome to the forum. I'm impressed with your comments and analysis. Very interesting and informative.

I agree, there is a strong football tradition in central Nova Scotia based on your university teams. I would like to point out however that there is also a CIS team in southeastern NB, namely the Mount Allison Mounties. They have also been around a long time and are closely followed in metro Moncton, especially by university alumni.

In addition, there is a very strong high school football tradition in metro Moncton. All six of our metro high schools have teams and one of them,the Bernice MacNaughton High School Highlanders, has been provincial champion for the last three years in a row. Not too long ago, the Harrison Trimble High School Trojans had been provincial champions for three years running.

For the last several years, the provincial high school championship game has been held at Rocky Stone Field in Moncton. The name of the field BTW has nothing to do with the quality of the pitch (it has artificial turf). "Rocky" Stone was the man responsible for developing the minor football program in greater Moncton.

The Universite de Moncton unfortunately does not have a CIS football team but this might change now that the World Junior Track & Field Stadium is being constructed on campus. I would be willing to predict there will be a new football team in the league within the next few years.