Salter Street Block | 41 m | 12 fl | Cancelled

[halifaxboyns]

Halifax's economic situation is improving and I agree with the critical mass theory, but I don't think the population growth has been that low - I suspect it's picking up. I'd be interested to see the official census numbers, because I suspect HRM is well over the 400,000 mark. I'm guessing growth between 2 and 2.5% percent.

Halifax does have the regional offices of banks; which is okay - but the HQ I think will always been in Toronto - unless a local bank gets created that can grow to a large size.

Where Halifax's fortune's may lie, although it seems in doubt currently because of the spill south of the US, will probably be in support industry for offshore oil and gas. While people don't seem too happy with it right now - if oil spikes again, the reality is - it will happen and create economic spin offs. This will mean jobs in many of the support industries, like those which take care of the rigs. Plus, with a strong port - many of those industries (which can't build or manufacture parts here) will ship them in from elsewhere - which may need to a rise in the use of Halterm/Ceres (which leads to the question of capacity at Halterm and if it reaches maximum - where does it grow?).

Unfortunately, I don't think any of the oil companies will HQ in HRM either. The best that it would get is a regional HQ; but that doesn't mean that it would be a small office or number of people. Plus if the support industries grow, they'll need offices too.

Tourism will always be a big pull - so if Nova Centre does go, I suspect there may be a rash of hotels going up in downtown over the next 5 years because I suspect it will put HRM on the big stage with other cities. I also suspect that growth of flight options or expansion of existing capacity will occur at YHZ - so watch for an announcement of another expansion in the next 5 years (of course, assuming everything falls into place).

One other place which HRM may want to consider investing in; but don't seem to care is retirees. With the biggest population shift in human history coming - many of the people that moved away for work - may want to come back. So more retirement 'villages' may be helpful to promote that.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

500,000 isn't that far off. At the current population growth of 1.3% annually it would take about 17 - 18 years. If the population growth rate goes up a bit then it could be even sooner. (Halifax is currently experiencing a baby boom - it just has to keep these people in the Halifax area).

Oh, I agree entirely Fenwick. In fact, I would say we are pretty close to 500K now if you look to commuter-shed areas that are officially beyond the municipality. (Winsdor, Truro and South Shore corridors).

My wistful comments were directed toward the extra "0" in your first post...

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

Oh, I agree entirely Fenwick. In fact, I would say we are pretty close to 500K now if you look to commuter-shed areas that are officially beyond the municipality. (Winsdor, Truro and South Shore corridors).

My wistful comments were directed toward the extra "0" in your first post...

Thanks terrynorthend - I took out the extra zero (maybe in 200 years Halifax will be up to 5 million).

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Hell, even the big names like Sobeys, McCains, etc don't have HQs here.

Why would McCain's locate their world HQ in Halifax? Their base is in the upper Saint John River valley. If they wanted to move to an urban setting for their HQ, I imagine it would be Fredericton or Saint John. At least it would be in the same province!

Also, I imagine any world HQ for either McCain's or Sobeys would not be a shining downtown office tower. Irving runs their HQ for Majesta/Royale Tissues, Cavendish Farms, Midland Transport and Irving Personal Care out of a single three storey suburban office building in uptown Dieppe. Mind you, it's in the flight path of the main runway of the GMIA therefore they couldn't grow "up"!

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Nepotism still runs rampant in Halifax and there is indeed an elite that get their kids into positions here

I agree on this point. There is a well entrenched old establishment in Halifax that believes very strongly in nepotism. I have seen this in medicine too, where senior staff at Dal Med School and the VGH saw to it that their children were the first ones offered plum teaching positions. This is one of the main reasons that I'm practicing in Moncton and not Halifax(not that I'm complaining, my job here is pretty good).

Nepotism however means that outsiders can feel excluded and if they feel that their pathway to success is obstructed, they may look elsewhere for career advancement. This is not good for the economic wellbeing of a community. Halifax does have this sort of a reputation!

[fenwick16]

I wonder if Sobeys would consider having their Headquaters in the new International Place tower since they are related to ECL.

[worldlyhaligonian]

"Halifax does have the regional offices of banks; which is okay - but the HQ I think will always been in Toronto - unless a local bank gets created that can grow to a large size."

Both CIBC and Scotiabank (Bank of Nova Scotia) were founded here and had their HQ here for many many years... I'm not saying lets move the HQ to Halifax, but I am saying that our offices should be larger given the history... Montreal lost alot of its banking industry due to the "quiet revolution", but they still have retained alot of their industry size. Halifax got a raw deal here.

We have a competitive advantage over Toronto in terms of people, cost, and time zone (we are 1 hour ahead of the markets opening)

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Why would McCain's locate their world HQ in Halifax? Their base is in the upper Saint John River valley. If they wanted to move to an urban setting for their HQ, I imagine it would be Fredericton or Saint John. At least it would be in the same province!

The HQ comment has more to do with the human capital element. Not to be rude, but the best and brightest business folk don't want to be in such a small place... I think in the maritimes, Halifax is the bare minimum in terms of size for attracting the best people. Could be why Halifax lost its banking sector.

I know people that work for these big maritime companies that are frustrated that they don't live in Halifax and many of them choose to leave after awhile because they want to live in a city.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

The HQ comment has more to do with the human capital element. Not to be rude, but the best and brightest business folk don't want to be in such a small place... I think in the maritimes, Halifax is the bare minimum in terms of size for attracting the best people. Could be why Halifax lost its banking sector.

I know people that work for these big maritime companies that are frustrated that they don't live in Halifax and many of them choose to leave after awhile because they want to live in a city.

Point well taken and I have heard in the past that McCain's has lost talent due to their HQ being in Florenceville. I imagine the same thing is true with the Sobeys in Stellarton.

That being said though, other Maritime cities also have a lot to offer and Halifax shouldn't be the only game in town for head offices in the region. Both Moncton and Fredericton rated higher than Halifax in the recent MoneySense rankings. I know, I know, most people don't lend too much credence to these rankings but I think it does show that a good quality of life is possible in the region outside of the greater Halifax googleplex!

Having lived in Moncton now for over twenty years, the only lifestyle factor that I really miss since leaving Halifax is the variety of good quality restaurants. Shopping and most forms of entertainment are on a par with Halifax. We have top tier restaurants too, but you get tired of the same 6-8 places to eat.

[ScovaNotian]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Both CIBC and Scotiabank (Bank of Nova Scotia) were founded here and had their HQ here for many many years...

RBC was founded as the Merchants Bank and went by the name of Merchants Bank of Halifax until 1901.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by ScovaNotian

RBC was founded as the Merchants Bank and went by the name of Merchants Bank of Halifax until 1901.

Thanks, thats interesting!

[sdm]

Originally Posted by ScovaNotian

RBC was founded as the Merchants Bank and went by the name of Merchants Bank of Halifax until 1901.

The Collins bank building at historic properties was the orignial head quaters (formed by Enos Collins) for CIBC.

Two very interesting facts of Halifax i got to admit.

[MonctonRad]

There is no question that Halifax has been badly screwed by the Canadian banking industry given that three of the top five Canadian banks (RBC, CIBC and Scotiabank) have their origin in the city. It would be nice if this situation could be at least partially redressed and not just for historical reasons. As has already mentioned, Halifax has advantages over Toronto that should be exploited.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There is no question that Halifax has been badly screwed by the Canadian banking industry given that three of the top five Canadian banks (RBC, CIBC and Scotiabank) have their origin in the city. It would be nice if this situation could be at least partially redressed and not just for historical reasons. As has already mentioned, Halifax has advantages over Toronto that should be exploited.

The problem (from my perspective) is that now that the headquarters are firmly established in Toronto - it will be difficult to get them to move. You have how many hundreds/thousands of employees that would have to get up and move if they were to relocate? Not an easy prospect.

I completely agree that Halifax got the shaft - but having them move now; won't be easy. There would have to be some sort of large carrot to do it - mainly in terms of offsetting the costs of all the headache of moving.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

The problem (from my perspective) is that now that the headquarters are firmly established in Toronto - it will be difficult to get them to move. You have how many hundreds/thousands of employees that would have to get up and move if they were to relocate? Not an easy prospect.

I completely agree that Halifax got the shaft - but having them move now; won't be easy. There would have to be some sort of large carrot to do it - mainly in terms of offsetting the costs of all the headache of moving.

lowering business taxes and income taxes would help, but wait, we are actually doing the opposite. DOH!

[Nilan8888]

Both CIBC and Scotiabank (Bank of Nova Scotia) were founded here and had their HQ here for many many years... I'm not saying lets move the HQ to Halifax, but I am saying that our offices should be larger given the history... Montreal lost alot of its banking industry due to the "quiet revolution", but they still have retained alot of their industry size. Halifax got a raw deal here.

This is partially true. As mentioned, RBC and ScotiaBank were pretty much completely founded in Halifax.

CIBC was 50% founded in Halifax as it grew out of a merger between a Halifax firm and one that was located either in Montreal or in Toronto many, many years back.

The reason for this is that in days gone by prior to confederation but after the American Revolution, Halifax was actually the banking center of British North America. Many rich merchants lived in Halifax and the city was pretty affluent. They resisted confederation and failed, citing Halifax would become weaker since the greatly valued trade with Boston and New York would be threatened... and I suppose it was. Halifax began to wane after confederation, and the 1917 explosion definately did NOT help things.

I think that's why there seems to be an abnormally strong banking presence in halifax -- those financial roots from way back. Nothing of import to what it was, but I think there's more of a presence in say, 1970 than there would have otherwise been in a place the size of Halifax.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

They resisted confederation and failed, citing Halifax would become weaker since the greatly valued trade with Boston and New York would be threatened.

It is a little eerie reading essays from people like Joseph Howe from the 1860s. The decline of the region unfolded pretty much as they predicted.

It's interesting to note, however, that the decline was mostly from about 1880-1930. This is when Halifax fell from being an undeniably important centre in the British Empire to 12th or 13th largest in Canada. Since then, its growth rate has been above average - it did much better than average during the 1930s and was the fastest growing city in Canada in the 1940s. Today it's growing at a relatively good pace.

Saint John is another city that seriously lost out post-Confederation. It was almost as large as Toronto back in 1860 and today most Canadians can't tell you what province it's in.

[Nilan8888]

It's interesting to note, however, that the decline was mostly from about 1880-1930. This is when Halifax fell from being an undeniably important centre in the British Empire to 12th or 13th largest in Canada. Since then, its growth rate has been above average - it did much better than average during the 1930s and was the fastest growing city in Canada in the 1940s. Today it's growing at a relatively good pace.

Confederation certainly moved the centre westward. I'm not sure had things unfolded more the way the merchants wanted that Halifax would still have ever become as big as Toronto (TO had advantages like space, awesome weather, and farming up the yin-yang), but it would certainly be much bigger.

Confederation forced Halifax into even more of sparadic growth pattern that ebbed and flowed with the tides of war. It had already been a little bit like that, but Confederation ensured Halifax became practically dead to growth until 1914, and then stopped up again after 1918. After the explosion and end to the war, Halifax probably seemed like how many are looking at New Orleans these days.

Things picked back up, of course. I think what essentially happened was that Halifax pretty much lost out on a good 60-70 year time span of needed growth that ended sometime around when my Grandparents were teenagers. And since then the growth is... what you'd expect for something Halifax's size.

[someone123]

Well, Toronto was also semi-random. Certainly that city could have been anywhere in Southern Ontario and it could have been much smaller than it is today. Lots of agriculture is nice but look at what it has done for the Midwest - places like Detroit, Cleveland, and Buffalo aren't looking particularly great right now.

It's a little strange to debate what might have been, but I think that, had things been a little different, it's easy to see Halifax as a second-tier Canadian city, somewhere in the range of Calgary or Ottawa, or maybe closer to Vancouver in size. That's what you'd expect for a city with a hinterland the size of the Maritimes.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Toronto got alot of Montreal's growth because of concerns over expropriation if Quebec were ever to separate... its really sad to see Montreal not be positioned where it could be.

[worldlyhaligonian]

I wonder if the impact of the explosion has ever been studied in terms of the current economic situation?

Anyway, this is all off topic... but its great to see waterfront development!!!

[someone123]

Here's a nice shot of the Salter site from tonydecoste on flickr:


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