[Dartmouth] King's Wharf (Building E) | 85 m | 27 fl | U/C

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I don't think the housing market is saturated; not by a longshot. I just think condos in Halifax have in recent years been overpriced (which the frequent reversion to rentals seems to bear out).

I was responding more to Colin May who has been posting stuff about how condos aren't selling for years now.

I think the fact that older people trade in houses for condos and the fact that the condo market is small tends to inflate prices in cities like Halifax. A lot of people like to buy into shiny new buildings and there are only a couple of these at any given time. The developers know that the buyers are downsizing and have a lot of cash to spend.

Here in Vancouver there is almost no rental construction. Developers can get more money selling off condos then selling or operating apartment buildings. I think this is mostly because there is a lot of speculation and all real estate is treated as an investment. Arguably, these investors are subsidizing their tenants in many cases. Most amateur real estate investors in Canada lose money every month on their purchases but make up for it with rising property values. If the increases stop it's going to get interesting. Halifax housing hasn't gone up much in value so the temptation to engage in this kind of speculation is much lower.

[DT Hfx]

My point is condos traditionally offered a cheaper alternative to a house and that itself can be sufficient appeal to make them salable almost anywhere. But if developers expect to sell pricey units they have to offer something really special such as being in the center of downtown.

[Colin May]

As I wrote previously, condos will sell in better locations of HRM.
A couple planning a family in HRM will rent then buy a house. And the turnover in my area is older sellers and 30 something buyers.
When discussing condos it helps if you have the names of owners and like anything else the devil is in the details.
The Anchorage, 88 units and first sale June 2013. As of today 3 commercial units and 28 residential units are unsold.

[Takeo]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The Anchorage, 88 units and first sale June 2013. As of today 3 commercial units and 28 residential units are unsold.

Last spring I was told The Avery has old sold 12 units. Beautiful building. Stunning. But most of the units are around half a million dollars+. It’s nuts.

[DT Hfx]

Those condo developers who demand high per-sq-ft prices would make more profit by concentrating on their niche market in the center of downtown Halifax going after those customers who prioritize an urban lifestyle. The Avery and King’s Wharf make a great improvement to the look of the area but unfortunately the downtown is not nearly substantial enough to bring out enough buyers at those high prices.
But I do hope I am wrong and the Maristella attracts enough interest to get built.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Takeo

Last spring I was told The Avery has old sold 12 units. Beautiful building. Stunning. But most of the units are around half a million dollars+. It’s nuts.

A few months ago I noted 15 units occupied,including the superintendent.
There are 45 units. An HRM planner tried to convince the developer to ask for another 2 storeys.
One penthouse unit is for sale at $899,900 for less than 1,700 sq ft !!
Great view of the harbour.... until the HRM owned empty lot on the opposite side of Alderney Drive lot is developed.
Can anybody tell me why The Maple is an apartment building and not a condo ? I see lots of BBQs and chairs on the balconies.
Rental details : Only 33 units available http://apartments.southwest.ca/apart...loorplans.aspx

[DT Hfx]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Can anybody tell me why The Maple is an apartment building and not a condo?

I asked them that very question last year; I was told "the developer prefers to keep his developments". To add to the rental portfolio I guess. The Maple is collecting very high rents so I imagine that is the way to the highest return over the long run.

[DT Hfx]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Rental details : Only 33 units available http://apartments.southwest.ca/apart...loorplans.aspx

The Maple has 281 units - so it is 88% occupied already. That's impressive.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by DT Hfx

My point is condos traditionally offered a cheaper alternative to a house and that itself can be sufficient appeal to make them salable almost anywhere. But if developers expect to sell pricey units they have to offer something really special such as being in the center of downtown.

Condominium or strata housing is simply a type of tenure. It has nothing to do with context and its a more recent phenomenon to have the 3 of condos built in the inner city. The first condominium corporation in Halifax was in Clayton Park, with Cowie Hill close behind, then all the redevelopment of the former Rockhead Prison in the north end. The earliest condos around here were townhouse-style in the early 1970s, townhouse and apartment-style in the Rockhead area. Townhouse was very common early on, but then you have all the apartment style along Spring Garden/Coburg. More recently, we have bare-land condos like Glen Arbour, where you build your own house on an exclusive use lot.

Halifax is a weird market, because unlike most markets, we build our rentals to condo quality or sometimes better. Dexel (Lawen), Southwest (Spatz), Universal (Suissa), Westwood (Chedraewe) all build almost exclusively rentals and hold on to them. They quality of construction by these developers is often far superior to WM Fares and United Gulf who like to build condos. Other markets often have to incentivize developers to get this type and amount of rental. CMHC is working hard to provide incentives for rental construction, but they recognize that these programs have no use in Halifax.

As others have said, the condo market is very soft in Halifax. Why buy a $400,000 condo when you can get a detached house? The Avery has sold 12 of 71 units. Q-lofts took years to get any amount of units sold. The price per foot to build quality units is too high in Halifax.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by DT Hfx

I asked them that very question last year; I was told "the developer prefers to keep his developments". To add to the rental portfolio I guess. The Maple is collecting very high rents so I imagine that is the way to the highest return over the long run.

A condo property produces greater property tax revenue as well as deed transfer tax (DTT) every time a unit is sold.
Avonhurst has 213 rental units and is assessed for 2018 at a little under $37 million. Do the math, if every unit sold at $150,000 the sales generate $479,500 in DTT.

[IanWatson]

I suspect in the current market holding on to rentals is more profitable in the long term compared to selling condos, but it also means you have to tie up capital and also have the management structure in place to manage the rental buildings. In other words, you're both a developer and a landlord. Different business models that appeal to different companies.

[Halifax]

Anyone hear anything on king's wharf and the status of the Maristella - last I heard was of legal issues and I would love to see this get going!

[kph06]

There is a long boom excavator on site, it looks like it is working on the breakwater near the marina. No activity on the Maristella site. We are probably due for a new concept plan for the site, they seem to change their mid each year.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by kph06

There is a long boom excavator on site, it looks like it is working on the breakwater near the marina. No activity on the Maristella site. We are probably due for a new concept plan for the site, they seem to change their mid each year.

The Maristella renderings released so far looked rough and preliminary. I wasn't a big fan of the style but then again it's hard to tell exactly how the rendering would have translated into a final product.

The idea of a 36 storey tower on this site is really interesting though. It would be a landmark in the harbour.

[hoser111]

Killam Properties acquires King’s Wharf building the Killick

In Killam REIT’s 2017 year-end presentation to unitholders, the real estate investment trust revealed that it had reached agreements to invest $39 million in two properties during the first quarter of 2018.

One of the acquisitions was a $33 million purchase of the recently completed Killick, a 12-storey, 110-unit apartment building — part of the King’s Wharf development in downtown Dartmouth, where the Dartmouth Marine Slips once stood.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/busines...siness_insider

Interesting that Fares states that the next building going up is 24 stories. Doesn't sound like the Maristella.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by hoser111

Killam Properties acquires King’s Wharf building the Killick

In Killam REIT’s 2017 year-end presentation to unitholders, the real estate investment trust revealed that it had reached agreements to invest $39 million in two properties during the first quarter of 2018.

One of the acquisitions was a $33 million purchase of the recently completed Killick, a 12-storey, 110-unit apartment building — part of the King’s Wharf development in downtown Dartmouth, where the Dartmouth Marine Slips once stood.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/busines...siness_insider

Interesting that Fares states that the next building going up is 24 stories. Doesn't sound like the Maristella.

Killam press release of February 13 2018 mentions the purchase. News travels slow to Nova Scotia.
The banks will be happy, they have lent him millions.
There are 29 unsold residential units and 2 unsold commercial units in the Anchorage. Aqua Vista has 3 unsold residential units.

[someone123]

In the latest development agreement, the only 24 storey component is lot E, which is at the Alderney Drive end (still over the rail line) and south of the existing buildings. It looks like a fairly narrow tower with a larger podium.

The Maristella is interesting in that it would be a new tallest for the city but lot E also looks significant in terms of making this feel like more of a neighbouhood instead of just a row of towers.

Development of the parking lot on King Street would probably be the biggest single improvement in terms of filling out downtown Dartmouth. Despite the infill that has been happening there, there are still half a dozen or so prominent surface lots that feel like holes in the urban fabric.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by someone123

In the latest development agreement, the only 24 storey component is lot E, which is at the Alderney Drive end (still over the rail line) and south of the existing buildings. It looks like a fairly narrow tower with a larger podium.

The Maristella is interesting in that it would be a new tallest for the city but lot E also looks significant in terms of making this feel like more of a neighbouhood instead of just a row of towers.

Development of the parking lot on King Street would probably be the biggest single improvement in terms of filling out downtown Dartmouth. Despite the infill that has been happening there, there are still half a dozen or so prominent surface lots that feel like holes in the urban fabric.

Here is a job for you :
Calculate the amount of shale which will have to be removed and then calculate the cost.
March 31 2018 marks the 40th anniversary of expropriation of the lot by Dartmouth City Council. The empty lot was assessed at $0 until last year when the assessment was $2,892,900; this year the assessment is the same.

[OldDartmouthMark]

For interests sake, here's what the King's Wharf site looked like in the 1950s when it was the Dartmouth shipyard:



Source

For comparison, Google's 3D map view:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.65208.../data=!3m1!1e3

[IanWatson]

Interesting how much larger Sawmill River was before Alderny Drive was built.