Rapid Transit in the Halifax area

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

An idea that I have been toying around with lately is a gondola over the Northwest Arm, similar to the ones used at ski resorts.

That is an interesting idea. A gondola was considered for SFU in Burnaby because it is on top of a large hill.

This is a preliminary study (there's probably a newer TransLink study from 2012 somewhere): http://univercity.ca/wp-content/them...E%20042209.pdf

I personally think LRT is pretty much a non-starter in Dartmouth. That end of town is very low density and decentralized, plus there's the issue of finding a bridge crossing. And they already have an (underused) ferry service.

The most feasible systems, I think, would either be something for the rail cut (if it ever becomes possible) or something along the lines of the Bombardier Flexity trains that would tie in with BRT for outlying areas.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

Here's what I've been playing with for a few days.

What got me thinking about this is Metro Transit's Portland Street High Frequency Corridor. I love that they implemented this idea and I started wonder just how reliable, and efficient the corridor really is. This got me thinking about improvements like bus lanes which then led me to noticing that the overpass needs to be widened for this so naturally I also lengthened it leading to my "Plan" which though extensive could be broken into reasonable stages.

How close is the Portland Street High Frequency Corridor to a BRT; does it currently have any dedicated bus lanes?

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

- The brown area is the LRT area (tracks and possibly power wires/poles)
- The purple area is the LRT station house.

General question; what is the advantage of having LRT in the "middle" of the road, rather than along the shoulders? I realize that this is how it's done most places (C-Train, TTC Streetcars) but ultimately it seems like this would either cost more (because stations have to be more elaborate) or that it would be less safe/convenient for pedestrians (especially if crossings are at-grade).

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by Hali87

General question; what is the advantage of having LRT in the "middle" of the road, rather than along the shoulders? I realize that this is how it's done most places (C-Train, TTC Streetcars) but ultimately it seems like this would either cost more (because stations have to be more elaborate) or that it would be less safe/convenient for pedestrians (especially if crossings are at-grade).

I believe LRT's are put in the median because its less intrusive at intersections especially if they are on the main road. Outside of downtown they get signal priority which keeps the main roads they're located on moving. Also on a road like the Circ placing it in the median doesn't mess with the interchange design. Putting the LRT in a highway median also guarantees high travel speed. There would be no at-grade road crossings and with a road design of 100km/h the curves would allow for the maximum speed to be reached.

For the diagram I created the access to the train station is above ground. I envision it looking a lot like Rundle or University stations in Calgary. There would be a small heated building in the centre with escalators, stairs, automated ticket booths, an elevator, and bathrooms.

At a later time or with the initial build (depending on finances) I would improve it more and install a second above-grade access on the north side of the site. It would cost a couple of million but it would provide direct connection from Athorpe Drive and high-density T.O.D. on the Penhorn Mall site. We could even provide weather protection similar to Heritage and Southland stations.

One benefit we'd have over my inspirations is using the natural grade to our advantage. There'd be no need for another pair of stairs and ramps on the side of the highway because Portland Street already sits above ground.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

How close is the Portland Street High Frequency Corridor to a BRT; does it currently have any dedicated bus lanes?

I think it is a lot like Windmill Road in Burnside. There isn't really any significant dedicated bus lane but it uses a mix of right-turn lanes, and bus signal prioritization. This seems to do the trick on Windmill (Link is only 32 minutes from Sackville to Scotia Square on-peak). However the thing with Portland Street is it has a much higher right-turning volume then Windmill which gets the bus trapped in line-ups.

[spaustin]

Originally Posted by Hali87

General question; what is the advantage of having LRT in the "middle" of the road, rather than along the shoulders? I realize that this is how it's done most places (C-Train, TTC Streetcars) but ultimately it seems like this would either cost more (because stations have to be more elaborate) or that it would be less safe/convenient for pedestrians (especially if crossings are at-grade).

If you put an LRT in the middle of the road and eliminate left turns, you minimize any potential interaction with cars. In commercial areas like Quinpool or Portland, an LRT built on the sides could have many cars pulling in front of it to turn into businesses, creating delays and, potentially, accidents.

[Nouvellecosse]

Not to mention that it would be very difficult to have on-street parking, and there couldn't be a dedicated ROW since the LRT tracks wouldn't be together.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Not to mention that it would be very difficult to have on-street parking, and there couldn't be a dedicated ROW since the LRT tracks wouldn't be together.

Yep and also for emergencies. If you see sirens behind you its instinct to pull over the right-hands side of the road where the slower traffic usually is. This also applies to accidents and breakdowns.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This map shows me what I already knew.

Currently, there is enough rail infrastructure in place that they could get a commuter/all day service using existing lines, and using trainsets like the O-Train uses

If they were to lay down track back over the rail trails (which will never get done), then you would have more lines.

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/ed...c.k7ejpDY7epUY

That is my suggestion.

The Blue, Green and Red lines all are on existing track.
The Green line could be run hourly/half hourly and would provide a great link for Halifax-Bedford-Dartmouth.

The Light Blue and Light Green lines all are former rail lines.

The Purple, Mauve and Orange lines would increase the coverage.

You may think that Halifax is too small to do this:
Boston had 600,000 when the Green line was built in 1897.
HRM has 400,000.

[Hali87]

Why would you ever need commuter rail or rapid transit to/from Sheet Harbour?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Why would you ever need commuter rail or rapid transit to/from Sheet Harbour?

Well, if HRM were to grow like other major centres, It would expand out and eventually, people would consider it.

In 50 years Calgary went from similar HRM population to over 1 million. In the same time, Edmonton went to 800,000+.

I am sure some people already commute from there. It only makes sense that more people would move there.

So, in 50 years, depending on what the HRM does on a whole, you could have upwards of 1 million.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am sure some people already commute from there. It only makes sense that more people would move there.

Warning, joke: It would never make sense for people to move to Sheet Harbour.

End of joke.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

Warning, joke: It would never make sense for people to move to Sheet Harbour.

End of joke.

People DO live in Spryfield....

[Hali87]

Spryfield and Sheet Harbour are very different places. Sheet Harbour is a relatively self-contained industrial town with its own port, well over an hour away from downtown and with very little population near it. Spryfield is pretty much a true bedroom community where most people commute to other parts of the city, is basically adjacent to the Peninsula, and would actually be a very convenient place to live in Halifax terms if transportation connections were better. LRT or BRT serving Spryfield via Northwest Arm Drive would make 1000x more sense to me than any kind of rapid transit (or basically any regular public transit) to Sheet Harbour, now or 50 years from now.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Spryfield and Sheet Harbour are very different places. Sheet Harbour is a relatively self-contained industrial town with its own port, well over an hour away from downtown and with very little population near it. Spryfield is pretty much a true bedroom community where most people commute to other parts of the city, is basically adjacent to the Peninsula, and would actually be a very convenient place to live in Halifax terms if transportation connections were better. LRT or BRT serving Spryfield via Northwest Arm Drive would make 1000x more sense to me than any kind of rapid transit (or basically any regular public transit) to Sheet Harbour, now or 50 years from now.

The other part of the equation for any public transit infrastructure like LRT is the return on investment; specifically what are the opportunities for redevelopment along the line. Calgary's 1 Billion $ West LRT line is a great example - the entire Sunalta neighbourhood is going to see a huge lift because of that station. The Westbrook Station will be a new mixed use community.

With Spryfield - if an LRT was to go down Herring Cove Road - there is great opportunity for the existing auto oriented commercial to redevelop into something more pedestrian focused, mixed use, oriented to the street. The mall out there is a prime opportunity site, plus there are some future greenfield growth areas that if an LRT served them could encourage more than the typical cookie cutter subdivision - you could do something much higher in density oriented around an LRT.

Sheet Harbour doesn't even have a local sewage system if I recall correctly - so density will be limited on what can be served with septic and well; which is very limited density. So the ROI for any major transit investment out there is limited.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Spryfield and Sheet Harbour are very different places. Sheet Harbour is a relatively self-contained industrial town with its own port, well over an hour away from downtown and with very little population near it. Spryfield is pretty much a true bedroom community where most people commute to other parts of the city, is basically adjacent to the Peninsula, and would actually be a very convenient place to live in Halifax terms if transportation connections were better. LRT or BRT serving Spryfield via Northwest Arm Drive would make 1000x more sense to me than any kind of rapid transit (or basically any regular public transit) to Sheet Harbour, now or 50 years from now.

You are assuming I mean right away. once somewhere like Musquoidoibot Harbour gets to the size of Truro, and if it were served by a rail link, then people may look further for some "piece and quiet".

That is how all the smaller communities get bigger.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You are assuming I mean right away. once somewhere like Musquoidoibot Harbour gets to the size of Truro, and if it were served by a rail link, then people may look further for some "piece and quiet".

That is how all the smaller communities get bigger.

I don't think Musquodoboit Harbour will necessarily ever be the size of Truro. Historically it hasn't been a major growth centre within the HRM and the Regional Plan would see some growth happen there but not much (25% of the pop growth in HRM over the next 2 decades or so is projected to be in rural centres, but distributed among them). Even if MH was the size of Truro, it wouldn't make much sense to me to run commuter rail out there. It would basically be a self-fulfilling prophecy of stretching infrastructure to the point of inefficiency, especially if such a system actively encouraged people to live somewhere like MH but work downtown. IMO this is pretty much exactly the opposite of what we should be doing. The only way it would make sense, to me, is if there were ~ 15 Truro-sized towns along the rail line between downtown and MH.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I don't think Musquodoboit Harbour will necessarily ever be the size of Truro. Historically it hasn't been a major growth centre within the HRM and the Regional Plan would see some growth happen there but not much (25% of the pop growth in HRM over the next 2 decades or so is projected to be in rural centres, but distributed among them). Even if MH was the size of Truro, it wouldn't make much sense to me to run commuter rail out there. It would basically be a self-fulfilling prophecy of stretching infrastructure to the point of inefficiency, especially if such a system actively encouraged people to live somewhere like MH but work downtown. IMO this is pretty much exactly the opposite of what we should be doing. The only way it would make sense, to me, is if there were ~ 15 Truro-sized towns along the rail line between downtown and MH.

Right now, I know many people that do commute from Bridgewater, Windsor and Truro.

If the line were to be built only to MH, then you would see more people moving there. They would look at is as a way to get out of the downtown area, yet not have the challenges of getting to work.

Now, once enough people do that. Some people would look at the extra distance to somewhere like SH, and they would move there.

The thing the HRM needs to do is to think. They need to think about how they will grow the city sustainably, and without creating even worse gridlock.

Part of that IS rail transit. Part of it, is, as you said, Truro sized towns.

That will happen if the HMR plans for it.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Right now, I know many people that do commute from Bridgewater, Windsor and Truro.

If the line were to be built only to MH, then you would see more people moving there. They would look at is as a way to get out of the downtown area, yet not have the challenges of getting to work.

Now, once enough people do that. Some people would look at the extra distance to somewhere like SH, and they would move there.

The thing the HRM needs to do is to think. They need to think about how they will grow the city sustainably, and without creating even worse gridlock.

I honestly think commuter rail, in a city of this relatively small size, with tentacles reaching out to genuinely tiny communities, is a bit crazy from a cost perspective, and counterproductive especially when we're trying to densify living patterns.

Far more important is decent transit facilitating convenient movement around the core communities--Halifax, Dartmouth, Bedford, and inner suburbs like Clayton Park.

[xanaxanax]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Right now, I know many people that do commute from Bridgewater, Windsor and Truro.

If the line were to be built only to MH, then you would see more people moving there. They would look at is as a way to get out of the downtown area, yet not have the challenges of getting to work.

Now, once enough people do that. Some people would look at the extra distance to somewhere like SH, and they would move there.

The thing the HRM needs to do is to think. They need to think about how they will grow the city sustainably, and without creating even worse gridlock.

Part of that IS rail transit. Part of it, is, as you said, Truro sized towns.

That will happen if the HMR plans for it.

You can take a train to Truro and back daily if you want