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  #5121  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2013, 9:40 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Almost all of Alliance's proposed projects have been built, if not all. Their most successful assets are the ones they consider "urban," so I'm not surprised they're expanding into Central Phoenix. I would imagine this is for real, barring any issues.

Unfortunately, their urban designs are essentially suburban-style with a few modifications: less setback but no street access, slightly denser but never more than 4-5 stories... Heck, their project on Camelback is even gated.

From the site plan posted a couple of months ago, this project will have a surface lot fronting Central. So, as with most developments these days, it's great to see interest in residential infill in this area, but we are clearly desperate and it's a shame that so much mediocrity has been swallowing up land.
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  #5122  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2013, 9:43 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Also, I forget if I mentioned this previously, but the former "Brophy Towers" lot has been sold... apartments had been proposed there last year that were similar in design to these Alliance ones. That lot is deadly for the area, so I hope the new owners don't land bank it for too long.
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  #5123  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2013, 10:15 PM
nickw252 nickw252 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
F
Looks like its going next to the punchcard building, is this really happening or just noise?
The Punchcard Building is on the east side of Central. This project is going on the west side (b/n Central and 2nd Ave). It looks like the 20 floor '60s era building they're talking about is the Meridian Bank Building (20 floors, completed in 1960):



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridia...Tower_(Phoenix)

This will be a good addition to the area. There are way too many empty lots and surface parking lots. I agree though, the design is too suburban with not enough of a street presence.
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  #5124  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2013, 11:46 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Thanks for posting the picture; I couldn't think of which building it was. What do they mean when they say the building has been "reclassified" in the article?

Are there no design standards for midtown? I hate that a parking lot is being allowed along Central smack in front of light rail, but oh well. It's an interesting use of space, so I hope it inspires some creative infill on the many similar lots throughout midtown. This is one area where this kind of development could work... with the vacancy struggles, it probably isn't best to bring any more retail inventory in. A nice urban neighborhood with direct access to downtown via light rail is probably the best route for giving midtown a purpose. Future residential really needs to encourage street and transit usage, though... Street entrances, walk-ups, etc.

Also, "transit oriented development" is being used way too liberally. 4 stories, and a good portion of the lot being devoted to surface and garage parking? Come on.

Last edited by Jjs5056; Nov 16, 2013 at 11:57 PM.
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  #5125  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2013, 12:21 AM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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The anouncement says "above and below ground" "Parking Structure" and that the exsisting surface lot with be replaced with the apartments
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  #5126  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2013, 2:09 AM
nickw252 nickw252 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
What do they mean when they say the building has been "reclassified" in the article?
I think what they mean is that the property isn't zoned for a tower, and when it was built, the city granted a non-conforming use variance to the developer, but now the property is being re-zoned to allow that type of use. To me it largely seems like a distinction without a difference. I'm not an expert on zoning, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
Also, "transit oriented development" is being used way too liberally. 4 stories, and a good portion of the lot being devoted to surface and garage parking? Come on.
I agree. Just because a suburban style building is plopped down beside transit does not make it "transit oriented development."
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  #5127  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2013, 2:30 AM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
The anouncement says "above and below ground" "Parking Structure" and that the exsisting surface lot with be replaced with the apartments
The site plans show, and defend the inclusion of, a parking lot fronting Central to serve the retail portion of the property. Over 50% of the Central Ave frontage will be parking, described as being "critical for the foreseeable future." Very sad that a parking lot fronting the 6th-largest city in the USA's main street and its mass transit line is deemed as critical to the retail's survival. Calling this project TOD isn't really justified at all.

http://phoenix.gov/webcms/groups/int...t/z-39-13n.pdf
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  #5128  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2013, 3:50 AM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
The site plans show, and defend the inclusion of, a parking lot fronting Central to serve the retail portion of the property. Over 50% of the Central Ave frontage will be parking, described as being "critical for the foreseeable future." Very sad that a parking lot fronting the 6th-largest city in the USA's main street and its mass transit line is deemed as critical to the retail's survival. Calling this project TOD isn't really justified at all.

http://phoenix.gov/webcms/groups/int...t/z-39-13n.pdf
I suspect that new retail tenants would not necessarily have the same perception of surface parking being mandatory. The problem is that Alexi's has been around a lot longer than light rail, and its clientele most likely arrives from the north rather than the south. The majority of customers are used to parking near the front door, and the restaurant, which appeals to an older crowd than most places in Midtown, probably fears losing their business if the surface parking goes away. As the document suggests, eliminating this parking lot is more likely if Alexi's ever ceases to operate.
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  #5129  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2013, 5:11 PM
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Originally Posted by exit2lef View Post
I suspect that new retail tenants would not necessarily have the same perception of surface parking being mandatory. The problem is that Alexi's has been around a lot longer than light rail, and its clientele most likely arrives from the north rather than the south. The majority of customers are used to parking near the front door, and the restaurant, which appeals to an older crowd than most places in Midtown, probably fears losing their business if the surface parking goes away. As the document suggests, eliminating this parking lot is more likely if Alexi's ever ceases to operate.
You pretty much nailed it here. I was thinking the same in regards to why the surface lot will remain on Central. It's an older crowd at Alexi's

Anyways, I hope the project is built and occupied. A net benefit to Midtown. Hopefully its success will inspire others to invest capital in building more TOD residential units, and embarrass those who continue to landbank.
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  #5130  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2013, 6:33 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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I'm sure all businesses would love to have a parking lot in front of their main entrance. Phoenix is, and will always be, a city that values the automobile over pedestrians and alternative forms of transportation.

By changing the zoning of the Central corridor decades ago to encourage high rise development, and by building the city's initial light rail rote down the street, Phoenix chose to transform Midtown from what was once a suburban neighborhood with single-family homes into an extension of our urban core. With that choice should have come the consequence of ensuring that the built environment be carefully planned to meet urban design standards and best practices. That includes things like shifting the focus away from car-oriented features.

Businesses chose to open, or stay, in the Midtown area with the knowledge that this is an urban neighborhood and I think it's absolutely ridiculous that their (and their patrons') old-school attitudes and unwillingness to accept change are being catered to at the expense of creating a vibrant and active part of the city.

Light rail will never succeed and decaying parts of the city like Midtown won't ever revitalize, if this kind of practice is allowed and accepted. If a business finds it can only thrive in a suburban setting, then it needs to pack up and move to the suburbs. That we are saying no other business would demand a surface lot makes this even more insulting - why is a project being developed with the wishes of 1 tenant being prioritized over the long term benefits of the city and community? Let the market decide if that space should continue to house Alexi's or not.

Midtown will never develop an identity or purpose if this kind of practice continues. The Biltmore area and Old Town will always be more attractive for those wanting a faux urban experience... Why would I move to, or visit, Midtown? It is turning its back on the things that could define it... Being so close to downtown and other amenities, and being right on the light rail gives it the potential to provide a real urban experience. But, that experience won't ever materialize if there's more cars idling than pedestrians walking.
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  #5131  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2013, 7:16 PM
azsunsurfer azsunsurfer is offline
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Central Phoenix will always need an adequate amount of parking for said future developments- surface lot or not. The area that encompasses Central Phoenix is still quite massive, under developed and immature- light rail or not. It's going to take another decade or so and an increase in population before we look back at the days when frontage surface lots were acceptable...
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  #5132  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2013, 3:41 PM
soleri soleri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
Midtown will never develop an identity or purpose if this kind of practice continues. The Biltmore area and Old Town will always be more attractive for those wanting a faux urban experience... Why would I move to, or visit, Midtown? It is turning its back on the things that could define it... Being so close to downtown and other amenities, and being right on the light rail gives it the potential to provide a real urban experience. But, that experience won't ever materialize if there's more cars idling than pedestrians walking.
Retrofits don't take place in a vacuum, however. You can't simply mandate new rules without reference to current uses. North Central was always suburban in character even during the heyday of Park Central and high-rise construction. The city really doesn't have many inducements it can lever to encourage better urban design. If Central Avenue looks a bit confused, it's because there's a lot more land than there is demand. It's only when the demand catches up - if ever - that the city can proffer zoning upgrades or fee abatements to negotiate with developers.

BTW, that Meridian Bank building was completed in 1958. It was originally the Guaranty Bank building, the tallest building in Phoenix for several years. It was developed by David Murdock who left Phoenix in the 1960s after declaring bankruptcy. He moved to Santa Barbara but died a billionaire anyway.
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  #5133  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2013, 5:49 PM
rocksteady rocksteady is offline
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Street Arches

Has anyone seen the new Melrose street arch over 7th Ave. I have yet to see it at night so does anyone know if it lights up? It looks like they are still working on the top corners, but I must say that I love seeing this.

I would love to see all Phoenix neighborhoods start doing this. Have local artists in each area to come up with a design fitting to that neighborhood. Every time I go to San Diego I instantly know what neighborhood I'm in simply by those signs, and each has a very unique "feel" to them. I think this would go a long way in helping give Phoenix a bit more character and sense of community. Anyone know the costs or approval process for putting these up?


Last edited by rocksteady; Nov 18, 2013 at 5:58 PM. Reason: added image
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  #5134  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2013, 10:00 PM
Freeway Freeway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
I'm sure all businesses would love to have a parking lot in front of their main entrance. Phoenix is, and will always be, a city that values the automobile over pedestrians and alternative forms of transportation.

By changing the zoning of the Central corridor decades ago to encourage high rise development, and by building the city's initial light rail rote down the street, Phoenix chose to transform Midtown from what was once a suburban neighborhood with single-family homes into an extension of our urban core. With that choice should have come the consequence of ensuring that the built environment be carefully planned to meet urban design standards and best practices. That includes things like shifting the focus away from car-oriented features.

Businesses chose to open, or stay, in the Midtown area with the knowledge that this is an urban neighborhood and I think it's absolutely ridiculous that their (and their patrons') old-school attitudes and unwillingness to accept change are being catered to at the expense of creating a vibrant and active part of the city.

Light rail will never succeed and decaying parts of the city like Midtown won't ever revitalize, if this kind of practice is allowed and accepted. If a business finds it can only thrive in a suburban setting, then it needs to pack up and move to the suburbs. That we are saying no other business would demand a surface lot makes this even more insulting - why is a project being developed with the wishes of 1 tenant being prioritized over the long term benefits of the city and community? Let the market decide if that space should continue to house Alexi's or not.

Midtown will never develop an identity or purpose if this kind of practice continues. The Biltmore area and Old Town will always be more attractive for those wanting a faux urban experience... Why would I move to, or visit, Midtown? It is turning its back on the things that could define it... Being so close to downtown and other amenities, and being right on the light rail gives it the potential to provide a real urban experience. But, that experience won't ever materialize if there's more cars idling than pedestrians walking.
Yes, Phoenix is never going to become more urban. The setback and parking requirements will ensure that Phoenix will remain auto dependent. It shocks me to see new restaurants and stores going up around the city that still require any pedestrians to enter through a side parking lot or cross a drive thru. Looking at older pictures of Phoenix (1950s-1970s) it seems that Phoenix has actually become more suburban over the years. Parallel parking has been eliminated on many streets in favor of more travel lanes, buildings that were built with the pedestrian in mind have been torn down for the same stores (Walgreens on 7th Ave and Camelback for example) with either walls or parking lots blocking off direct pedestrian access, and the general lack of architecture diversity among developers here have all contributed to making Phoenix the most anti-urban major city in the country.

Midtown only exists because of developers interest in duplicating the Wilshire Boulevard corridor in LA here in Phoenix. This city has never cared for anything beyond developer proposals. I'm sure in the 1960s, the idea of devoting an entire corridor to high rise development was exciting for the city (growing skyline symbolizes a growing economy), for developers (profit, profit, profit), and for residents (transformation of their small city into a large city). However, no one seemed to looked much beyond the development proposals. Mixed use and walkability factors were non-factors back then and are barely taken into consideration now. They were non factors all the way through 1990 or so when the last major high rise was constructed. It was all about catering to the developer. It is nearly impossible to come in now and retrofit what has been done.

The residents of Midtown have a significant amount of power. Notice all of the walls from McDowell north to Thomas that prevent through vehicular traffic on east-west streets. Most care nothing about anyone's desire to make the area vibrant and active. There is no way for the city to just ignore the objections of surrounding neighborhoods and completely change the character of the Central Corridor. People in those areas would quickly use their money to vote out as many as those politicians as possible.

People pining for an "urban" lifestyle in this city should focus on Downtown Phoenix, Downtown Tempe, and possibly Downtown mesa. Those are the only areas in which developers actually have backing of residents to build anything remotely urban. Old Town Scottsdale will not get more urban because of the influence of neighborhood east of Old Town and the anti-urban city council.
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  #5135  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2013, 5:51 AM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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Originally Posted by rocksteady View Post
Has anyone seen the new Melrose street arch over 7th Ave. I have yet to see it at night so does anyone know if it lights up? It looks like they are still working on the top corners, but I must say that I love seeing this.

I would love to see all Phoenix neighborhoods start doing this. Have local artists in each area to come up with a design fitting to that neighborhood. Every time I go to San Diego I instantly know what neighborhood I'm in simply by those signs, and each has a very unique "feel" to them. I think this would go a long way in helping give Phoenix a bit more character and sense of community. Anyone know the costs or approval process for putting these up?

Bingo! I've been saying this for years.
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  #5136  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2013, 3:40 PM
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Originally Posted by nickw252 View Post

I agree. Just because a suburban style building is plopped down beside transit does not make it "transit oriented development."
Indeed its actually Transit PROXIMATE Development, not oriented.

Even Valley Metro makes the same mistakes. I've talked to a lot of higher ups there about how much I hate the idea of rail running on the I10 W because there will be no TOD. And they say "oh no, office parks could still be built along the 10 and that would be TOD"



It takes 100% of my self control to not shout "thats not TOD you loon!!!"
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  #5137  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2013, 4:04 PM
nickw252 nickw252 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocksteady View Post
Has anyone seen the new Melrose street arch over 7th Ave. I have yet to see it at night so does anyone know if it lights up? It looks like they are still working on the top corners, but I must say that I love seeing this.

I would love to see all Phoenix neighborhoods start doing this. Have local artists in each area to come up with a design fitting to that neighborhood. Every time I go to San Diego I instantly know what neighborhood I'm in simply by those signs, and each has a very unique "feel" to them. I think this would go a long way in helping give Phoenix a bit more character and sense of community. Anyone know the costs or approval process for putting these up?

FQ Storey just put up entrance signs off of 7th Avenue. They look nice. I really like the idea of the overhead sign like for Melrose.
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  #5138  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2013, 4:06 PM
nickw252 nickw252 is offline
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Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
Indeed its actually Transit PROXIMATE Development, not oriented.

Even Valley Metro makes the same mistakes. I've talked to a lot of higher ups there about how much I hate the idea of rail running on the I10 W because there will be no TOD. And they say "oh no, office parks could still be built along the 10 and that would be TOD"



It takes 100% of my self control to not shout "thats not TOD you loon!!!"
The term "mixed use" is also being re-defined for the worse. Ex: "That office park by the highway has a cafeteria in it. It's a 'mixed use' building."
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  #5139  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 10:06 PM
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  #5140  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2013, 4:01 AM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Yes, I think everyone here wants to see neighborhood signage.

How was the funding gained for the Melrose version and can it be replicated to raise money for other central city neighborhoods? I assume no government funding was used given the lack of approvals and public input.

I think McDowell and 7th (the four historic corners), Roosevelt Row and Grand Avenue are the top 3 in need of this signage. But, I think we need to make sure we come up with a universal process for funding and for design, because while each should be unique to its neighborhood, they are all part of Phoenix and that should be obvious.

I think they all need to incorporate neighborhood bulletins, list of upcoming events, maps of neighborhood amenities, etc. on a pedestrian scale to make them useful as well as decorate.
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