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  #1  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2010, 4:41 PM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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I'm not sure if this is the right thread to post this...but doesn't this seem a little crazy? So the only reason they are trying to pass this bill is to bypass something that is already in place?

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Proposed law could chase Suntech, other solar firms from Arizona
Phoenix Business Journal - by Patrick O'Grady


Suntech Power Holdings Co. Ltd. may reconsider locating to Goodyear and other solar power companies could follow suit if a law to classify nuclear power as renewable passes.

The companies warn that passage of House Bill 2701, scheduled for its first hearing Tuesday, could cripple the state’s nascent solar industry and send players to other states.

“We are confident that the Legislature, once it fully appreciates the potential consequences of enacting this bill, will do the right thing and let it die,” said Steve Chadima, vice president of external affairs for Suntech.

Suntech, the largest Chinese manufacturer of solar modules announced earlier this month plans to put its first U.S. facility in Goodyear after more than two years of looking for a location. Officials said the state’s renewable energy standards developed by the Arizona Corporation Commission were key to the choice of Arizona for the manufacturing base.

Barry Broom, president and CEO of the Greater Phoenix Economic Council which has worked to woo solar companies, said other companies have sent a similar message.

“This is a very serious error in judgment,” he said. “It smacks of politics. Just introducing the bill creates damage, and every day it’s out there creates more lasting damage.”

HB 2701 was introduced less than two weeks ago as a legislative attempt to bypass the Corporation Commission standards, requiring utilities to get 15 percent of their power from renewable sources by 2025. The bill would add nuclear and hydroelectric sources as a means to meet that goal. It also would do away with the commission’s distributed energy standard, which requires 30 percent of total renewable power produced by utilities comes from rooftop systems.

That segment is seen as a driver to demand, allowing Arizona Public Service Co. and other utilities to charge a tariff to fund incentive programs.

Lyndon Rive, CEO of SolarCity, one of the large California installers which came to the state two years ago because of the incentives, said the bill would create a situation of double regulation and likely put many solar companies in the state out of business.

Kyocera Solar, which has its U.S. headquarters in Scottsdale, also finds the bill a possible impediment to solar in Arizona.

“It undermines our effort and progress made to create green jobs, and would be a major setback to Arizona’s reputation as a solar industry leader,” said Tom Dyer, senior vice president for the company, in a statement. “Quite simply, this bill does not support growing the local economy, nor does it assist in protecting the environment.”

Representatives of the solar industry met with Gov. Jan Brewer Tuesday morning, prior to the hearing on HB 2701. Suntech announced it was rethinking the Arizona location just prior to that.

Broom said Suntech’s exit would devastate GPEC efforts to lure its suppliers to the state as well as any other solar company that was close to making a decision
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  #2  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2010, 5:12 PM
SethAZ SethAZ is offline
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I wrote to every singe person on the legislature yesterday about this bill. There is a long list of cosponsors, most of them were Republicans. (I thought that was interesting.)

On this site you can fill in you zip code and it will send a form letter to your reps telling them what a stupid idea this bill is.

http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o...ction_KEY=2353
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  #3  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2010, 5:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
I'm not sure if this is the right thread to post this...but doesn't this seem a little crazy? So the only reason they are trying to pass this bill is to bypass something that is already in place?
The biggest part of the bill and the part that's grabbing headlines is defining nuclear as a renewable source of power. I have big problems with that. I'm not necessarily against nuclear power since it is clearly more efficient and greener than some other forms of power generation... but it does burn nonreweable fuel (uranium) which by definition makes it non-renewable. The Corporation Commission didn't mandate greener power, it mandated renewable power, and there's a clear difference whether or not you support nuclear power. That said...

Quote:
HB 2701 was introduced less than two weeks ago as a legislative attempt to bypass the Corporation Commission standards, requiring utilities to get 15 percent of their power from renewable sources by 2025. The bill would add nuclear and hydroelectric sources as a means to meet that goal. It also would do away with the commission’s distributed energy standard, which requires 30 percent of total renewable power produced by utilities comes from rooftop systems.
I was unaware that hydroelectricity wasn't counted as a renewable resource. That's ridiculous. Opposite problem of nuclear... hydroelectric may not be the greenest source of power (it's fine in my book, especially for existing dams, but I understand that not everyone agrees with that), but it's clearly renewable. It's hard to get more renewable than water.

Similarly, I have big problems with the distributed generation requirement. I just don't understand this recent urge for distributed power. Solar panels are nice and all, but solar thermal plants are far more efficient are far more practical.
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  #4  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2010, 6:16 PM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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Water is not an unlimited resource, dude. Wind and sun are.
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  #5  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2010, 6:46 PM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
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Not trying to be any sort of prognosticator but I feel like the water cycle is pretty consistent...about as reliable as the solar one. The sun could have already burned out for all we know....what's it take - 16minutes for the light to get here?
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  #6  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2010, 7:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Vicelord John View Post
Water is not an unlimited resource, dude. Wind and sun are.
I didn't say it was unlimited, I said it's renewable. Obviously we could use up our entire water supply, but if we cut our usage it will replenish itself quite quickly. If we were to stop all our usage of oil or coal it would take tens of millions of years to replenish itself. someone with more scientific knowledge can correct me, but I'm not sure if uranium would ever replace itself. It's not organically based like oil or coal, it's a mineral, right? So what we have now is all we'll ever have (discovering more doesn't count), right?

And the best part about hydroelectric power, is we don't burn the water, so we can use it for multiple purposes. We can run it through a generator, then it can continue on to whatever other purpose we want to use it for. It's not like we have a choice between using it for hydroelectric power or drinking water, or hydroelectric power or agricultural water, it can be used for both... then run through the water cycle and get used again. Thus making it renewable
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  #7  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2010, 9:06 PM
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I'm all for hydroelectric and nuclear as the produce huge sums of electricity that solar and wind can't even come close to yet and they are clearly safer and greener than fossil fuel plants. However that bill really doesn't seem to make any sense, nuclear is somewhat renewable since you can recycle the spent rods and use them again but its not truly renewable in the sense that solar is.
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  #8  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2010, 11:37 PM
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PHX31 PHX31 is offline
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Read this post:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...69#post4715969

And isn't Bill Gates right now throwing his support into clean nuclear?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/02/17/b...ear/index.html
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  #9  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2010, 3:14 AM
Tfom Tfom is offline
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That was a really interesting article, and I am personally in favor of using nuclear energy as one of our sources for cleaner energy, but I think it leaves one thing out. He rags on solar energy a bit, but every thing you and I have ever done, and everything every other organism has done (save a few that are deep underwater and get their energy from volcanic vents) have all been fueled by power from the sun. If the sun can make all of those plants grow and all of these animals move then I think it is a viable source of energy. That may mean bio fuels and better technology to utilize those, but I think these options should all be explored.
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  #10  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2010, 9:06 PM
phxbyrd phxbyrd is offline
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I think we should be focusing on biofuels and alternative fuels based around clean diesel. Biodiesel from agriculture, biofuels from algae and other sources, coal to diesel and natural gas to diesel. Shift more truck traffic to trains and start doing the math and the nation's carbon footprint and foreign oil dependency take a big dip. Follow this strategy with good ole' efficiency and carbon sequestration and America can wait out the 20 years it will take to go completely renewable.
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  #11  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2010, 2:40 PM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
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The problem with biofuels is that the conversion of crops to corn is more damaging than the CO2 that gasoline is putting into the air. It is such a cash crop for farmers in the midwest that they are beginning to undercut the food supply. Also, the runoff from these corn crops is creating dead zones in the gulf of mexico that is jeopardizing many of our fishing industries.
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  #12  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2010, 3:49 PM
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Corn is completely passe as a biofuel. The next advancement in biofuel came from DARPA, who has figured out a way to get oil and jet fuel from algae that can even grow in brackish water for $2.00/gallon and going lower.

As far as I can tell, they've eliminated the problem of peak oil. At least it's carbon neutral in theory.
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  #13  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2010, 3:51 PM
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The Energy Thread

Under construction
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  #14  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2010, 1:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SethAZ View Post
I wrote to every singe person on the legislature yesterday about this bill. There is a long list of cosponsors, most of them were Republicans. (I thought that was interesting.)

On this site you can fill in you zip code and it will send a form letter to your reps telling them what a stupid idea this bill is.

http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o...ction_KEY=2353
Signed up to the link above, and sent a form letter to my state reps. Received this response from the Vote Solar folks yesterday:

Quote:
Friends-

Good news to share. After critical articles in the Arizona Republic, the Phoenix Business Journal, and the East Valley Tribune, HB 2701, the bill that would have resulted in a solar eclipse in Arizona by redefining nuclear energy as a qualifying renewable energy resource, was withdrawn by the sponsor. Governor Brewer issued a statement (pdf) in support of continued development of the solar industry and the jobs it provides, as did Speaker Kirk Adams.

This is a very good outcome. Can you send some key legislators and the Governor a note of thanks for their role in keeping the solar industry alive and growing in Arizona? Take action here.
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  #15  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2010, 8:46 PM
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PhxPavilion PhxPavilion is offline
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Originally Posted by PHX31 View Post
This message brought to you by the counsel for nuclear energy.

Quote:
And isn't Bill Gates right now throwing his support into clean nuclear?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/02/17/b...ear/index.html
Yes, he is betting on the new, theoretically more efficient and safer nuclear technologies that are being developed. The problem is those are still at least 20 years away.

Last edited by PhxPavilion; Feb 28, 2010 at 3:20 AM.
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  #16  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2010, 10:38 PM
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http://azcapitoltimes.com/blog/2010/...reduction-law/

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State agencies, universities ignore energy-reduction law
By Dustin Volz and Stephanie Snyder - dustin.volz@azcapitoltimes.com
Published: March 28, 2010 at 7:28 pm

Back in 2003, lawmakers passed a law that required state agencies and universities to reduce their energy consumption by 10 percent by the end of 2008. The legislation had overwhelming bipartisan support, and it was intended as a way for the state to set an example for local governments to make their buildings more eco-friendly.

The intentions may have been noble, but the results were disappointing. None of the energy standards were met by the deadline, and the Board of Regents, responsible for the state’s three universities, remains non-compliant.

Yet the law included no penalty for violations. And it’s anybody’s guess when the universities will meet the reduction standard. The UofA, for example, has completely disregarded the law by increasing energy use during the past six years, and university officials say they don’t expect to make serious progress anytime soon.

“If the economy turns around in two years, I’d be more than happy to get more money from the state in any way we can. But I don’t see that happening,” said Albert Tarcola, assistant vice president of business affairs at UofA. “There’s new technology that we can’t even afford to buy right now.”

Michael Neary, president of the Arizona Solar Energy Industries Association, said the state has had plenty of time to meet the energy- reduction requirements. Lawmakers and state officials, he said, simply don’t seriously consider energy efficiency as a way to save money.

“In the long run the whole goal is to save taxpayer dollars,” Neary said. “Since 2003 there have been plenty of opportunities. The state has been flush with cash at times between then and now to where they could have taken advantage of some of these measures.”

Rep. Ed Ableser, a Democrat from Tempe, said lawmakers should use the budget to apply pressure on state agencies that fail to meet the energy-reduction standards. He said whatever savings would be gained from a potential decrease in energy consumption should be taken out of the budget of any agency that doesn’t comply.

“If they’re simply ignoring the mandate of the Legislature, then they’re basically going against the will of the people,” he said. “The bureaucrats should not have that ability to simply ignore a mandate the Legislature puts in place.”

The law requiring state agencies to reduce energy use (Arizona Revised Statute 34-451) was approved in 2003 after a 54-1 vote in the House and a 22-6 vote in the Senate. The law gave the Arizona Department of Administration, Department of Transportation and Board of Regents until July 1, 2008 to reduce their energy consumption by 10 percent per square foot of building space.

Former Rep. Randy Graf, a Tucson Republican who sponsored the bill, said lawmakers recognized the state had done very little to reduce energy consumption and saw it as a solution to save money. He said he doesn’t remember why the bill was drafted without penalties for non- compliance.

“I don’t think there’s any question there should’ve been some more oversight to check the status of (the energy reduction) as it was nearing,” he said. “State agencies have a difficult time meeting deadlines and always come back to the Legislature for reprieve or extensions.”

Between 2003 and 2008, the Department of Administration reduced its energy consumption by 5 percent per square foot of building space, the Department of Transportation by 6.3 percent and the Board of Regents by 1.3 percent, according to the 2008 energy usage report issued by the Arizona Department of Commerce.

The Department of Administration and the Department of Transportation, which together are responsible for the vast majority of state buildings, reduced energy consumption enough in 2009 to meet the standards, although a year too late.

The problem, according to officials with both departments, is the state’s budget deficit. When the standards were set in 2003, nobody could have foreseen the economic downturn and the resulting state budget crisis, which has left agencies without enough money to invest in equipment or building remodeling projects that reduce energy use.

“We’ve never received the level of building renewal money that’s necessary to implement systems that will allow us to realize those savings,” said Alan Ecker, spokesman for the Department of Administration. “With the old, outdated, inefficient equipment we have it’s literally impossible to realize those standards.”

The Department of Transportation failed to comply with the standards in time because it took several years to realize the energy savings that resulted from the department’s efforts that began in 2004, according to spokeswoman Laura Douglas.

Douglas said the agency was not able to make the 2008 deadline because it had just established an energy consumption reduction program in 2004.

“(The program) needed to get going, so we didn’t see a tremendous amount of energy savings in, say, 2006 or 2007 because the program was still in its infancy and these projects were still getting going and the energy savings had to start that momentum,” she said.

In 2009, however, the Transportation Department significantly reduced energy consumption in 89 of its largest buildings by installing new heating and cooling systems, as well as new lighting, Douglas said.

The department’s overall energy reduction was enough to satisfy another provision of the law that requires state buildings to cut energy consumption by 15 percent by 2011.
Thermostats were installed to regulate building temperatures during the off-hours when employees were not present, so they were cooled less in the summer months and heated less in the winter months, Douglas said. The department also installed occupancy sensors in many offices to prevent unoccupied rooms from being lit, she said.

To pay for the projects, the Transportation Department has relied on a combination of a portion of an annual budget designated through its building renewal program and money from rebate programs offered by utility companies, Douglas said.

The Department of Transportation has faced severe budget cuts but still managed to prioritize energy-saving programs, Douglas said.

“Our energy reduction efforts have always been a priority,” she said. “It continues to be a priority.”

The Department of Administration, meanwhile, is close to meeting the 15 percent reduction requirement by 2011. It has reduced energy consumption by 12.1 percent during the past six years, with most of the progress made in 2009.

Jim Westberg, the energy program administrator for the Department of Administration, said most of the energy reduction that occurred last year can be attributed to staff layoffs and the slightly cooler summers and warmer winters.

Last year, the state laid off about 7 percent of its workforce, which means less electricity was used and the same amount of building square footage was used in the equation. If the workforce increases during the next couple of years, agencies might have to take additional steps to reduce consumption to meet the 15 percent deadline in 2011.

The Energy Office, within the Department of Commerce, has contracted with the Department of Administration to spend about $9.5 million from the U.S. Department of Energy to establish energy-saving projects for more than 51 ADOA-managed buildings. Right now, audits are being conducted by a hired contractor, Siemens, to determine how the money should be distributed, Westberg said.

Even with the federal dollars, though, lawmakers aren’t sure there will be much support any time soon for stronger legislation because the state isn’t looking to take on more expenses.

“Just about everything we do has a cost,” said Rep. Lucy Mason, a Prescott Republican and chairwoman of the House Water and Energy Committee. “Whether it’s a mandate or enforcement of a mandate, there’s going to be a cost. You can require something to happen and you can also have an enforcement piece of it, but unless you want to create something … akin to renewable energy police, I don’t think you’re going to get the desired outcome.”
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