Do any malls in Canada treat their bus passengers this bad?

[Gerrard]

Uh it's not that difficult to figure out why a suburban mall in the U.S. might not have a transit link to their business...

[Marty_Mcfly]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I hope this question doesn't turn out to embarrass me... but where is uptown St. John's? I have absolutely no idea what part of the city you're talking about.

Sorry I'm just using uptown as a descriptor for anything that isn't downtown; it seems that a lot of the major bus routes in the city circle through downtown so I find it easy to describe the route travelling and terminating downtown as "downtown" (sha) and anything travelling away from downtown as "uptown bound".

[vid]

Thunder Bay's largest mall built a transit platform in 2003, at its own expense, as the mall is the main destination of transit riders. Basically, the city subsidizes the mall's customer base. In return for building the transit platform, the mall is allowed to get away with having less than 90% of the parking the zoning by-law says it should have. Across the street from the mall is a power centre that "banned" public transit and is having difficulty finding tenants. We were going to move the main transit terminal across the street from the mall, but they protested because it would mean the on-site transit platform would no longer be used, and they didn't want to lose it as a service to customers. It will likely be built in a really stupid location instead.

Miller Hill Mall in Duluth, MN has several bus routes that circle the entire building, stopping at every entrance.

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by ue

^ You know he is talking about his experiences in suburban Cleveland, right?

I am aware of that. In response to the original thread topic, in the States most malls are similar to the one in Cleveland with regards to buses, whereas it can be hit or miss in Canada depending on where you are.

I was just replying to a post that seemed to imply that a large demographic of shoppers was being turned away from malls in the States, when it is really a very different group than that of Canadian bus users. One that generally doesn't have large amounts of disposable income.

[ssiguy]

I think that the difference in the US as opposed to Canada is that, with the exception of NY, SF and a couple others, transit is seen as an essential service in Canada and in the US it is seen as a social service.

[ue]

^ I would say in most American cities, rail transit is not considered a social service relegated to the poor and downtrodden. Businessmen and wealthy teenagers will take the MAX in Portland or the DART in Dallas or the San Diego Trolley, for example, just like they will take the MUNI and BART in San Francisco or the Subway in New York.

Outside of New York, buses also seem to be popular in Seattle and Los Angeles. Both are cities which lacked sufficient rail transit until fairly recently after their streetcar networks were ripped up (1990 for Los Angeles and 2009 for Seattle). Thus these otherwise big, urban cities had and still have a large populace in need of transit services. I've often heard Seattle referred to as more of a "bus town" than Vancouver and Portland, while LA has the Big Blue Bus and DASH.

Originally Posted by Procrastinational

I am aware of that. In response to the original thread topic, in the States most malls are similar to the one in Cleveland with regards to buses, whereas it can be hit or miss in Canada depending on where you are.

I was just replying to a post that seemed to imply that a large demographic of shoppers was being turned away from malls in the States, when it is really a very different group than that of Canadian bus users. One that generally doesn't have large amounts of disposable income.

I was pointing it out because Mike himself said that the passengers of the bus he frequents to the mall in Cleveland isn't just full of poor people.

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by ue

^ I would say in most American cities, rail transit is not considered a social service relegated to the poor and downtrodden. Businessmen and wealthy teenagers will take the MAX in Portland or the DART in Dallas or the San Diego Trolley, for example, just like they will take the MUNI and BART in San Francisco or the Subway in New York.

Definitely. In Boston for example, plenty of white collar workers take the MBTA subway into the city for work. Most people down there view rail based transit very favorably.
Even for me personally, I'd very much rather drive somewhere than take a bus (in tend to actively avoid them), but I'd much rather take rail transit than drive when possible.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by ue

Outside of New York, buses also seem to be popular in Seattle and Los Angeles. Both are cities which lacked sufficient rail transit until fairly recently after their streetcar networks were ripped up (1990 for Los Angeles and 2009 for Seattle). Thus these otherwise big, urban cities had and still have a large populace in need of transit services. I've often heard Seattle referred to as more of a "bus town" than Vancouver and Portland, while LA has the Big Blue Bus and DASH.

Buses seemed quite popular in San Francisco when I was there recently as well. Despite popular conceptions rail transit doesn't actually serve most of the city that well - buses seemed like a viable alternative that most people make use of. They have plenty of trolley-buses too which are a nicer ride than conventional ones. We ended up taking the bus quite a bit because it was more convenient where we were staying (Upper Haight). The usage level, frequency and patronage of the bus system reminded me a lot of the TTC actually. Although the crazy quotient was a bit higher - but that's reflective of SF as a whole!

[Doady]

I'm not sure there is a greater divide between attitudes towards bus vs. rail in US than in Canada. Despite being a bus-based system, Seattle actually has decent ridership, at least by US standard. At the same time, lots of cities in US that have light rail actually have crappy ridership...

If there is a difference between US and Canada, it's probably how transit planning in US is based on race and class divisions: building new rail lines for wealthy white neighbourhoods while cutting bus service for poor non-white neighbourhoods, where the buses are already overcrowded to begin with...

[MolsonExport]

My question is: Do busses in Canada treat mall customers this bad?

[BIMBAM]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

In cities where everyone uses transit, sure, then you'd want them to have easy access... but if everyone is using transit, the city is probably dense enough that suburban malls aren't a thing anyway.

Suburban malls are always a thing, in any NA metro. Lots of people use transit in Montreal, but there's still suburban malls in the suburbs, and they have good bus stops so that the significant minority of suburbanites (mostly young people) who use transit can get to shopping.

[goodthings]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The worst I can think of for GTA malls is Markville.

I don't think so. It's Erin Mills Town Centre.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.56023...T9iYs8Vf8w!2e0

Second most important mall in Mississauga.
7 bus routes directly serving the terminal.
But what they only have is two shelters and two benches, and the surface is UNPAVED.
And a LONG walk to the mall via a sea of parking lots.
Yes. It's so bad that the express bus does not serve the terminal. Instead, it stops at the northern side of the mall.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.55953...IzrRel_eyQ!2e0

Better infrastructure with bus stop pads and concrete walkway to the mall entrance, but even farther from the mall itself, let alone the bus terminal.

Other malls in Mississauga are in a much better situation though:
Square One: https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.59428...iJWEWQySMA!2e0
South Common: https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.54250...HCwP1A1fxQ!2e0
Westwood Mall: https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.72169...V-H3OnnGTg!2e0
Meadowvale Town Centre: another good one, but too far to view on Street View

Other malls in GTA:
Bramalea City Centre (a good one, but no direct access to the mall though): https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.71847...GduUHHYaLA!2e0
Vaughan Mills: https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.82731...zF8gZ5cQQg!2e0
Shopper's World (looks good even at construction, but extremely exposed to the elements though): https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.66652...ALnxhBoMcA!2e0

[Innsertnamehere]

Well markville sort of has 3 stops in different locations around it. Its a 300 meter walk from a GO station, but also doesn't serve as a bus hub. (Unionville is the hub in the area, 2.5km away) The bus stop most people would use to get to the mall (VIVA) is across a large intersection from the corner site of the mall.

[canarob]

Markville isn't that awful. Sometimes I get off GO, do some shopping and then take the VIVA home, which is only 75 cents if it's under 2 hours since you left GO. It's about a 5 minute walk from the GO train, but the GO bus drops you off right at the mall. I agree that crossing 7 and MCCowan can be rough though (the arrival and departures listed above being reversed for all of us heading east).

There is room for improvement, of course, but I'm hopeful that with Sears leaving Cadillac-Fairview will expand the mall closer to the street. They seem to be hoping to make this mall the high end-option in the eastern GTA (Sporting Life opening this year is a big win) and buying out Sears cost a small fortune, so they would seem to have big plans.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

My question is: Do busses in Canada treat mall customers this bad?

Not any that I've ever seen.

In Winnipeg, every regional mall has a transit hub in the parking lot... they are generally equipped with shelters and offer frequent service.

Now that I think about it, there probably isn't much in it for the mall owners to allow that kind of transit presence. Although I recognize that some transit riders have money to spend, in prairie cities such as Edm, Cal, Wpg, Regina, I would think that the vast majority of dollars coming into the malls arrives by private automobile... malls like Southcentre in Edm or Polo Park in Wpg don't need transit users. Removing transit access would probably reduce the number of loitering/shoplifting/troublemaking kids without affecting mall revenues. Let's hope the mall landlords don't stumble upon this thread

[ue]

Southcentre is in Calgary.

I disagree, well at least for Edmonton and Calgary. Vast swaths of middle class and even some wealthy people use buses and (more frequently) trains to get to the mall, especially younger people in these income brackets. Southgate in Edmonton is popular with downtowners (the yuppies) who want more selection than what's available at City Centre. WEM and Downtown don't have numerous high frequency bus routes for no reason. Kingsway is also a major transit hub, though I'd argue less so than Northtown, at least until the LRT opens at Kingsway in a few months. To the south of me, Chinook C-Train seems to get quite a bit of traffic, most of whom are going to the mall a couple blocks away, which is why they're planning to reduce connectivity issues between the C-Train and mall itself for pedestrian. The Core in Calgary seems pretty popular since its renos and with the high parking fees downtown, many shoppers are taking the C-Train in.

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by esquire

Removing transit access would probably reduce the number of loitering/shoplifting/troublemaking kids without affecting mall revenues. Let's hope the mall landlords don't stumble upon this thread

You're basically saying that the majority of people who take transit to malls are loitering/shoplifting/troublemaking kids?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ue

Southcentre is in Calgary.

I disagree, well at least for Edmonton and Calgary. Vast swaths of middle class and even some wealthy people use buses and (more frequently) trains to get to the mall, especially younger people in these income brackets. Southgate in Edmonton is popular with downtowners (the yuppies) who want more selection than what's available at City Centre. WEM and Downtown don't have numerous high frequency bus routes for no reason. Kingsway is also a major transit hub, though I'd argue less so than Northtown, at least until the LRT opens at Kingsway in a few months. To the south of me, Chinook C-Train seems to get quite a bit of traffic, most of whom are going to the mall a couple blocks away, which is why they're planning to reduce connectivity issues between the C-Train and mall itself for pedestrian. The Core in Calgary seems pretty popular since its renos and with the high parking fees downtown, many shoppers are taking the C-Train in.

My bad, I was thinking of Southgate.

I don't know... I rode the bus quite a bit while living in Edmonton as I didn't have a car there. I sure didn't see a lot of obviously wealthy-looking people on my bus trips to Kingsway, ECC, WEM, etc. Obviously, not everyone on the bus was a troublemaking 16-year old kid, but many of the troublemaking 16-year old kids appeared to be using the bus to get to the mall... to the point where I can understand why some mall landlords might want to make it less pleasant or impractical for transit users to get to their properties.

[ue]

Well, clearly, the malls find it worth it to have busy transit centres on their property. Wealthy people are less common, especially on buses, but there are tons of middle class folks with Sephora, Simons, Forever XXI, Aldo, and the Bay bags boarding buses. Also, a lot of those 16 year olds aren't troublemakers, but in fact regular people with wads of cash to spend.

How long ago did you live in Edmonton btw?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ue

Well, clearly, the malls find it worth it to have busy transit centres on their property. Wealthy people are less common, especially on buses, but there are tons of middle class folks with Sephora, Simons, Forever XXI, Aldo, and the Bay bags boarding buses. Also, a lot of those 16 year olds aren't troublemakers, but in fact regular people with wads of cash to spend.

How long ago did you live in Edmonton btw?

While I was in university 2002-2005. Been back a few times since.

I suspect that the main reason these transit centres at Canadian malls are non-negotiable is because many workers likely arrive by bus. I have been to some totally auto-centric US cities where it's reasonable to expect that EVERYONE will drive (hence the treatment of bus passengers in suburban Cleveland as shown by miketoronto), but the reality in Canadian cities is that many of the people working in malls can and do take the bus to work.

FWIW I am not attacking bus riders... I am a regular bus user myself.