Tucson Development Thread

[crzyabe]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Look at that disgusting suburban new York Olive Garden Culture

You used a picture of Times Square. Times Square is a non-New Yorker's idea of what New York City is.

Also, I think we can all agree that Olive Garden is horrible

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by crzyabe

You used a picture of Times Square. Times Square is a non-New Yorker's idea of what New York City is.

Also, I think we can all agree that Olive Garden is horrible

I really hope you didn't miss my point that hard.

[azsunsurfer]

Originally Posted by Obadno

I really hope you didn't miss my point that hard.

Don't you go making points that Tucsonans don't understand...

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

Don't you go making points that Tucsonans don't understand...

[southtucsonboy77]

I like Olive Garden, love other authentic Italian restaurants more.

Secondly, how are there this many Phoenicians commenting on this Tucson thread...? Are there any Tucsonans that comment on the Phx metro threads? Just curious cuz I don't look at those.

But due to hurt feelings its apparent that you're missing the point and you give the perception that you're trolling this thread looking for an argument. Phx is saturated with power centers from Queen Creek to Buckeye to the point where a youth baseball club didn't know the difference between each suburb. Its the same sh**. Surprise and Gilbert...same sh**. Nightlife? People go to Scottsdale and Tempe...downtown Phx is a distant 3rd. Phx is making strides...but it is what it is.

I respect the comments...however, cities like Denver and Seattle disprove your point about the West. Even add cities such as Portland, Austin, Sacramento...metro areas in between the sizes of Tucson and Phx. Scale to scale, Phx isn't close to its peers. Tucson is.

[crzyabe]

Originally Posted by Obadno

I really hope you didn't miss my point that hard.

What was your point? That New York City has an Olive Garden?
Or that Olive Gardens are in every city?

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by southtucsonboy77

I like Olive Garden, love other authentic Italian restaurants more.


I respect the comments...however, cities like Denver and Seattle disprove your point about the West. Even add cities such as Portland, Austin, Sacramento...metro areas in between the sizes of Tucson and Phx. Scale to scale, Phx isn't close to its peers. Tucson is.

I look at the ABQ threads too!
But for your last paragraph you are incorrect. If you compare Gilbert or queen creek to the center of Denver I guess you have a point. But that isn't an apt comparison

Central Phoenix neighborhoods: Downtown, Midtown, North Central, Biltmore, Camelback East, Arcadia, Scottsdale, Downtown Tempe, etc etc compete in every way with the centers of other large cities in the west and even on a national scale.

Its pretty stupid to have someone move out to surprise and complain that it isn't like downtown Austin, is it not?

Suburban Gilbert, Subrban Marana , Suburban Riverside, Suburban Auraura, Suburban Vancouver wa, are all cookie cutter suburbs. Not surprising that they all have a Panda Express and Home Depot.

This isn't shocking.

And I would agree that Tucson does match its peers like ABQ, Tulsa and Fresno.

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by Obadno

I look at the ABQ threads too!
But for your last paragraph you are incorrect. If you compare Gilbert or queen creek to the center of Denver I guess you have a point. But that isn't an apt comparison

Central Phoenix neighborhoods: Downtown, Midtown, North Central, Biltmore, Camelback East, Arcadia, Scottsdale, Downtown Tempe, etc etc compete in every way with the centers of other large cities in the west and even on a national scale.

Its pretty stupid to have someone move out to surprise and complain that it isn't like downtown Austin, is it not?

Suburban Gilbert, Subrban Marana , Suburban Riverside, Suburban Auraura, Suburban Vancouver wa, are all cookie cutter suburbs. Not surprising that they all have a Panda Express and Home Depot.

This isn't shocking.

And I would agree that Tucson does match its peers like ABQ, Tulsa and Fresno.

Fresno > Tucson

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by crzyabe

What was your point? That New York City has an Olive Garden?
Or that Olive Gardens are in every city?

That you claim people in Phoenix live close to chain restaurants as if that is demonstrative of some sort of low culture or undeveloped city.

Yet Central midtown has an olive Garden yet Downtown Phoenix does not.

Its a strawman, all cities have chains, and the suburbs of all cities are....like suburbs.

[azsunsurfer]

Downtown Gilbert now has more foot traffic on any given weeknight than Congress does in a year, believe me.

[Ted Lyons]

What metrics are we using to compare downtown Phoenix neighborhoods to Portland, Denver, Seattle, and Austin neighborhoods? The fact that they have (some) level of density and accessibility to goods and services? Going back to the original catalyst of this conversation, I don't think that's enough to make Phoenix a cultural destination.

[kmiller5]

The insecurity from the Phoenix dorks is staggering. Why do you care what other people think of Phoenix? If you like it, congrats! You probably have terrible taste and have never left. But that's fine! You can have pride in your city AND accept that the best thing to ever come out of Phoenix is the freeway.

I think the 122 degree days are getting to your heads.

[kmiller5]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

Downtown Gilbert now has more foot traffic on any given weeknight than Congress does in a year, believe me.

LOL. Donald Trump is here, guys!

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

What metrics are we using to compare downtown Phoenix neighborhoods to Portland, Denver, Seattle, and Austin neighborhoods? The fact that they have (some) level of density and accessibility to goods and services? Going back to the original catalyst of this conversation, I don't think that's enough to make Phoenix a cultural destination.

The point of my comment form earlier was addressing exactly what the metrics are as well because I think its a bunch of nonsense.

Since then its just been banter because the Tlocals are being mean

[kmiller5]

All teasing aside, I actually prefer downtown PHX to any part of Gilbert, Mesa, Tempe, or Scottsdale. It might not be as "nice" as the other parts of the valley but it is more authentic.

[azsunsurfer]

This has actually been fun, we should do this more often. Next time we'll host!

[andrewsaturn]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

Downtown Gilbert now has more foot traffic on any given weeknight than Congress does in a year, believe me.

Downtown Gilbert must be the most popping place in all of Phx

[southtucsonboy77]

Originally Posted by Obadno

I look at the ABQ threads too!
But for your last paragraph you are incorrect. If you compare Gilbert or queen creek to the center of Denver I guess you have a point. But that isn't an apt comparison

The Albuquerque thread is the only other thread I look at and comment on. Used to live there. In the late 90s/early 2000s, downtown Albq was a whole lot more advanced than downtown Tucson. No shame in saying that. 2017, my opinion is that downtown Tucson has surpassed Albq. Downtown Albq kinda stalled there for a bit, but is now doing some great things. Just an opinion.

As for the other comment, the point is: Phx metro is massively expansive...is continuing to be massive and sprawled...that ultimately its developed that reputation...here in Tucson and throughout the U.S. Its not that metro Tucson has a Marana or Arizona Pavilions power center...the problem with Phx is that it has 20 Maranas and 50 Arizona Pavilions. That's all you see from Buckeye to Queen Creek. That's the point we are making. And, on the subject, I feel that metro Tucson is behind in power centers and the market is playing catch-up.

Additionally, downtown Phx and Phx itself hasn't reached that comparable urban and cultural mark that its peers have reached...peers meaning 20 largest metro areas. Tucson is in the 50 largest range...that's the benchmark I look at as a citizen and as a planner. Just an opinion...and the AZ Central article I attached shared the same idea.

Many Tucsonans, born and raised, love metro Phx. Move there for the jobs, entertainment, the aesthetically pleasing roadway and neighborhood landscaping, the freeways...for whatever reason. There's probably a thread/blog just for former Tucsonans-who re-located to Phx-who hate Tucson. Despite some of Tucson's ills...and we argue amongst ourselves sometimes on this thread of what they are and the degree...Tucson has some awesome things going for itself and on the uptick. We're now landing on Top-whatever lists for positive attributes...although we'll still find ourselves on some bad ones. But for the most part, we know who we are...that's why we get excited for 7-story residential bldgs, some...not all (Lol). It seems like some Phoenicians are in denial of what the Valley really is. Developers and planners know...that's why they are working tirelessly to get Phx where it needs to be, but its not there yet.

[southtucsonboy77]

Back to 44 E. Broadway, that building by far is one of the ugliest structures in downtown Tucson. The adjacent surface parking lot magnifies its existence since there's nothing to hide that western wall. If a structure can be developed to hide 44's somewhat stand-alone presence and morph into a continuous multi-story structure façade and streetscape (with the corner Westerner/West Point re-development), it will enhance that block from Stone to Scott.

Thanks for sharing that rendering.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by southtucsonboy77

is that it has 20 Maranas and 50 Arizona Pavilions

See this is the gist, and FYI, im not debating you or anything, but criticisms of Phoenixs suburbanism (something many cities get accosted for like LA, Dallas, Atlanta etc.) Is not specially unique for any mid-large metro anywhere in north America. NYC metro has the equivalent of 50 Maranas, LA has the equivalent of 50 Marana's so does Chicago, the Bay area, Seattle, Houston, Miami etc. etc.

They are all surrounded by miles of bland cookie cutter sprawl. But people don't Decry Manhattan because of its Long Island suburbs, People don't say Chicago sucks because it has outlet malls 45 miles from downtown.

That's why I say its a straw man to bitch about "oh its so suburban" so is every city in America besides a handful of city centers and in most cases that's only a few blocks at most.

If Tucson was the center of a 5 million person metro instead of a 1 million person metro it would have just as many "power centers" as you call them.

Central Phoenix (not just downtown but the Central neighborhoods Between Downtown and Sunny slope) are just as dense as the average central neighborhoods of ANY city besides the largest ones like NYC or Chicago.

anyway Im done defending the home team back to Tucson development news you guys have had a lot of good growth downtown as well which Is why im here in the first place!