Cities Try to Phase Out Gas Stoves—but Cooks Are Pushing Back

[JDRCRASH]

An article I looked at recently when I thought about the idea of H1 as an alternative to C2H6/CH4 blends. Definitely worth a read:

https://www.newscientist.com/article...n-make-enough/

[Pedestrian]

Per the SF Business Times, a federal court just upheld Berkeley's ban on gas service in new construction, rejecting the suit by the California Restaurant Association. We'll see if this means the end of Berkeley as the "gourmet ghetto" Alice Waters made it.

[llamaorama]

I don't think there is a conspiracy singling out Chinese-Americans by telling them they can't cook with woks over a flame. That is some victimary thinking, right there. You choose to be angry.

I also just feel there is so much lower hanging fruit to tackle in terms of carbon emissions.

I agree, the real goal is to not use gas for water heaters and furnaces and not have gas distribution systems that leak, since natural gas by itself is a major greenhouse gas. The other benefit of abandoning gas is lowering costs of development and maintaining infrastructure in cities, and then also the public health benefit of indoor air quality. Also less fire risk would would lower everyone's insurance.

Gas stoves would be the unintended casualty of this, which is why I suggested that commercial kitchens and die-hards could use propane.

Also ultimately you have to ask how exactly do gas stoves perform better in some cooking applications even against induction and treat that as a interesting design problem and an opportunity.

[Crawford]

Latin America cooks electric or induction only. I'm pretty sure Latin America has culture, and good food.

I have zero culinary skills, but if it works for top chefs like Enrique Olivera and Gastón Acurio, U.S. chefs should be able to manage.

Or, as with most choices that negatively affect society as a whole, if it's really a priority, there should be some way to pay special fees/submit to regulation for the privilege.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Latin America cooks electric or induction only. I'm pretty sure Latin America has culture, and good food.

I have zero culinary skills, but if it works for top chefs like Enrique Olivera and Gastón Acurio, U.S. chefs should be able to manage.

What you need high heat and instant control for is searing and rapid frying like stir frying. If the cuisine doesn't have a lot of that, it shouldn't matter too much.

One thing I wonder how Mexican cooks are doing to do without flame is blacken (and peel) chiles. You can do it in the oven but it's not the same.

[llamaorama]

I'm not an engineer or anything so maybe this is crazy talk, but what if it was possible to take the head of a plasma cutting torch, put it inside a housing, and use a blower to push air through it? Essentially it would be an extremely high temperature impinger oven, which is what pizza restaurants use when they don't have a traditional wood fired oven.

This might generate ozone or other unpleasant gases you don't want in the kitchen, though.

Another insane idea might be to use superheated steam coming out of a small jet on a stove top. If you don't know what I mean, a classic school science demo is burning paper with vapor from a flask of water the teacher is heating with a blowtorch. Replace the blowtorch with some kind of electric apparatus and the flask with a metal drawer at the bottom of the stove. I think this steam would be relatively "dry", it would be so damn hot coming out it wouldn't necessarily condense and moisten the surface of the food.

[SFBruin]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Or, as with most choices that negatively affect society as a whole, if it's really a priority, there should be some way to pay special fees/submit to regulation for the privilege.

Yeah, I mean maybe one can apply for some sort of chef's exemption?

Kind of annoying that you have to apply for one, but if it is better for the environment...

[dchan]

Originally Posted by ocman

Because the pro-position, which I'm talking about, is constantly championed using an exclusive western context that's deeply ingrained in talks about climate change behavior. And if you're not white, you spot it easily. Yes, most people do agree gas is better. Also, it's not dragged into the discussion. The article covers the detriment this has to Chinese cuisine, specifically.

I am of Asian descent, and am also involved with Passive House energy efficient building design. So I can see it from both sides.

Passive House design recommends electric cooking only, and using recirculating hoods to vent the cooking fumes towards the exhaust part of the Heat/Enthalpy Recovery Ventilators (which would be set to overboost mode during cooking). This is because Passive House design frowns upon direct exhaust hoods because they aren't designed to be airtight, nor do they have heat recovery. As someone who recognizes the need for a rip-roaring high flame for proper wok hei, I always found Passive House's recommendations for cooking hoods to be from people who don't actually do any hardcore cooking.

At one of the PH Zoom Happy Hours, there was even a pretty deep discussion about the subject because many people have a passion for both cooking and energy efficiency, and have a hard time reconciling the two in Passive House designs. Forget about just Asian cooking and wok hei; if you sear steaks, you know that recirculating hoods are garbage and do nothing to keep the smoke contained.

Originally Posted by llamaorama

I agree, the real goal is to not use gas for water heaters and furnaces and not have gas distribution systems that leak, since natural gas by itself is a major greenhouse gas. The other benefit of abandoning gas is lowering costs of development and maintaining infrastructure in cities, and then also the public health benefit of indoor air quality. Also less fire risk would would lower everyone's insurance.

Gas stoves would be the unintended casualty of this, which is why I suggested that commercial kitchens and die-hards could use propane.

Also ultimately you have to ask how exactly do gas stoves perform better in some cooking applications even against induction and treat that as a interesting design problem and an opportunity.

Pretty much. Gas cooking equipment is simply a casualty of eliminating natural gas heating, which is the main target for carbon emissions reduction. The reason energy efficiency experts focus on electrification is due to the vast difference in heating/cooling equipment efficiencies:

- Gas furnaces and boilers are at-best 95-97% efficient
- Heat pumps and A/Cs are anywhere from 200-400+% efficient

The reason for the vast difference in efficiency is simple. Gas heating equipment extracts heat from gas through combustion. Heat pumps and A/Cs utilize the efficient refrigeration cycle to extract heat from a source. The source can be air, water, or the earth. In other words, HPs and A/Cs are simply moving heat from one source to another source.

[ocman]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

I don't think there is a conspiracy singling out Chinese-Americans by telling them they can't cook with woks over a flame. That is some victimary thinking, right there. You choose to be angry.

And that’s a perfect example of a typical dismissal of the concerns of Chinese-Americans in the green movement, right there. This topic is well-covered in media concerning the ramifications on Chinese restaurants which is more heavily reliant than most on open flame, so they’re not choosing to be angry. I’m not completely against restricting it, as there are solutions and compromises for clean energy and the reduction of natural gas. But far too often, it’s an outright ban that tends to steamroll a populations traditions where it may be vital. These blindspots happen in California all the time where leaders easily ban things because it doesn’t really affect them.

[ocman]

Originally Posted by dchan

I am of Asian descent, and am also involved with Passive House energy efficient building design. So I can see it from both sides.

Passive House design recommends electric cooking only, and using recirculating hoods to vent the cooking fumes towards the exhaust part of the Heat/Enthalpy Recovery Ventilators (which would be set to overboost mode during cooking). This is because Passive House design frowns upon direct exhaust hoods because they aren't designed to be airtight, nor do they have heat recovery. As someone who recognizes the need for a rip-roaring high flame for proper wok hei, I always found Passive House's recommendations for cooking hoods to be from people who don't actually do any hardcore cooking.

At one of the PH Zoom Happy Hours, there was even a pretty deep discussion about the subject because many people have a passion for both cooking and energy efficiency, and have a hard time reconciling the two in Passive House designs. Forget about just Asian cooking and wok hei; if you sear steaks, you know that recirculating hoods are garbage and do nothing to keep the smoke contained.

If you look up photos of Chinese restaurant kitchens, all of them are using a wok over high flame. There are some solutions such as a flat bottom wok, but there needs to be some innovation where heat licks up the sides to produce the essential wok hei. You’re definitely not going to get that with an induction stove. The home cook is less of a concern but it’s still critically important that there exists some compromise that preserves traditions of people that live here, whatever that compromise may be.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

I'm not an engineer or anything so maybe this is crazy talk, but what if it was possible to take the head of a plasma cutting torch, put it inside a housing, and use a blower to push air through it? Essentially it would be an extremely high temperature impinger oven, which is what pizza restaurants use when they don't have a traditional wood fired oven.

This might generate ozone or other unpleasant gases you don't want in the kitchen, though.

Another insane idea might be to use superheated steam coming out of a small jet on a stove top. If you don't know what I mean, a classic school science demo is burning paper with vapor from a flask of water the teacher is heating with a blowtorch. Replace the blowtorch with some kind of electric apparatus and the flask with a metal drawer at the bottom of the stove. I think this steam would be relatively "dry", it would be so damn hot coming out it wouldn't necessarily condense and moisten the surface of the food.

The easy solution is stoves that burn hydrogen but the hard part is safely storing the hydrogen. Everybody remembers the Hindenburg. For anyone who may not understand, hydrogen "burns" without producing carbon--"burning" is essentially an oxidation reaction and oxidized hydrogen is water.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by ocman

If you look up photos of Chinese restaurant kitchens, all of them are using a wok over high flame. There are some solutions such as a flat bottom wok, but there needs to be some innovation where heat licks up the sides to produce the essential wok hei. You’re definitely not going to get that with an induction stove. The home cook is less of a concern but it’s still critically important that there exists some compromise that preserves traditions of people that live here, whatever that compromise may be.

One thing of note: the heat energy in even a single burner at a good Chinese restaurant is several times higher than the heat energy in your average home gas stove. So home cooks are restricted on the amount of true wok hei they can achieve on home stoves. Restaurant cooks also use knee controls at the burner to modulate the flames so they can keep both hands to cook.

For restaurants, I don't see gas stoves going away anytime soon. For home kitchens, creating wok hei already involves some compromises even with good gas stoves. You can't really get wok hei simply by blasting the stove burner on the highest setting. You also need additional steps, such as using a butane torch to set the food on fire occasionally in the wok over the burner.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by dchan

One thing of note: the heat energy in even a single burner at a good Chinese restaurant is several times higher than the heat energy in your average home gas stove. So home cooks are restricted on the amount of true wok hei they can achieve on home stoves. Restaurant cooks also use knee controls at the burner to modulate the flames so they can keep both hands to cook.

For restaurants, I don't see gas stoves going away anytime soon. For home kitchens, creating wok hei already involves some compromises even with good gas stoves. You can't really get wok hei simply by blasting the stove burner on the highest setting. You also need additional steps, such as using a butane torch to set the food on fire occasionally in the wok over the burner.

If you have a yard or deck you can also set up a propane tank and cook outside.

as someone who grew up with that elusively smoky flavor of restaurant-style Chinese food, it's something I long to capture in my own cooking. In the past, I've found moderate success stir-frying over burning coals. The torch hei technique Tim Chin wrote about for Serious Eats is also one of the strategies I employ in my book (and in my own kitchen). But for true restaurant-style food, you need a true restaurant-style burner. The kind that shoots up a jet of flame big enough to lick up and over the back edge of the wok as you toss, imparting that signature smokiness.

Luckily, if you've got a bit of outdoor space, a propane tank, and a bit of cash to spend, true restaurant-style stir-frying is within your grasp. Here are my recommendations.

https://www.seriouseats.com/outdoor-wok-burner-review

[dchan]

Originally Posted by homebucket

If you have a yard or deck you can also set up a propane tank and cook outside.



https://www.seriouseats.com/outdoor-wok-burner-review

Yup, that's another one of the compromises available. Instead of stinking & greasing up your home and potentially causing an indoor fire, why not bring high-heat cooking outdoors?

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

I agree, the real goal is to not use gas for water heaters and furnaces and not have gas distribution systems that leak, since natural gas by itself is a major greenhouse gas. The other benefit of abandoning gas is lowering costs of development and maintaining infrastructure in cities, and then also the public health benefit of indoor air quality. Also less fire risk would would lower everyone's insurance.

Gas heaters are way cheaper to run than electric heaters. Sometimes by 100s of dollars a month.

In the Northeast, I'll go as far as saying electric heat reduces the value of your house.

It's one of the many sort of pre-reqs people consider when looking at the bones/systems of a house. Electric heat? Pass. Electric Stove? Pass. No central air? Pass.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Gas heaters are way cheaper to run than electric heaters. Sometimes by 100s of dollars a month.

In the Northeast, I'll go as far as saying electric heat reduces the value of your house.

You're thinking of electric resistance heaters, which often come in the form of baseboard heaters. While technically more efficient than gas boilers/furnaces, they are not significantly more efficient, and the electricity needed costs more than the gas needed.

In terms of efficiencies:

- Gas boilers/furnaces: at-best, 95-97% efficient
- Electric resistance heaters: 100% efficient
- Heat pumps and A/Cs: 200-400+% efficient

Whenever energy efficiency experts and lawmakers push for electrification, they intend for consumers to adopt heat pumps for heating and cooling, and not electric resistance heaters. Heat pumps extract the heat from the outside air in cold season, and the heat from indoor air in hot seasons.

Even the cold winter air acts as a heat source, and heat pumps can extract the heat from this air to heat up a building. Of course, the efficiency is far lower in very cold weather, anywhere from 100-200% efficient depending on the temperature. In addition, sometimes there isn't enough heat to extract from very cold air. For very cold conditions, many heat pumps come with a supplemental electric resistance coil on its air mover units.

We should also think of where/how our energy will come from in the future, and not just the present. Electricity will come increasingly from green electrical generation sources, as well as on-site solar panels and wind turbines. On-site electrical generation in particular will significantly lower the cost of electricity.

In addition, buildings will be designed to be more energy efficient. They won't need as much heating and cooling because their thermal building envelope (walls, roof, windows, doors, etc.) will be built & designed to enable comfortable indoor temperatures with the bare minimum of heating or cooling.

So yes, gas/oil heating and cooling may be cheaper today, but that's mostly because we need lots of energy to heat our current energy-inefficient buildings. The math is always changing, and will change in the future.

[10023]

Originally Posted by JManc

It wasn't cheap but worth it. Plus, adds value to the house.

I'm not sure how we managed to drag race into a discussion about stoves...but race is injected into just about everything else now so why not. Fact is most people (regardless of race) who cook agree that gas is better.

2025 is when the ban comes into effect, so you can still install it until then. But if there’s subsequently an issue, I don’t think you’re allowed to have that remedied - they will just take it out.

And yeah, the race comment is stupid. I know how to make fried rice with wok hei flavor too. It’s more people who can’t cook, and just like the convenience of cleaning a ceramic cooktop. And that divide might be somewhat ethnic/immigrant, but it isn’t really racial (I don’t think most black American households cook much at home either).

[Steely Dan]

people's gas (chicago's local gas utility company) just spent many millions of dollars ripping up our entire neighborhood last summer to install new higher-pressure gas lines.

and they're doing the same in other neighborhoods all across the city, so i don't think gas appliances will be outlawed in chicago anytime soon.

which is nice, because like most people, i MUCH prefer cooking with gas.

[cabasse]

i've been cooking a bit lately thanks to hello fresh, and we have gas at home. i'd really like to try an induction cooktop though. it's supposed to be able to heat up even more quickly than gas - by causing the cookware to heat itself. https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-new...ic-11619104405

[SFBruin]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

Also ultimately you have to ask how exactly do gas stoves perform better in some cooking applications even against induction and treat that as a interesting design problem and an opportunity.

Or an annoying one that wouldn't have to exist if people didn't ban gas.