Confederation Line West LRT Extension (Stage 2) [Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

It's my pet peeve that they will screw it up.
Same thing for the airport spur, and it appears they've already settled on the 2nd option for it, unfortunately. Say hello to hauling your luggage up and down the stairs.

Yes Lincoln Fields is a bad transfer configuration that is really going to be a sore-point moving forward. I assume they changed it so that they could make the Carling Avenue structure more narrow, but I'm not sure.

Airport spur is different. Its a single centre platform with a pocket track behind the platform. The airport train will drop you off and then move into a pocket track. At that point you will have to wait a minute for the mainline train to pick you up and continue northbound. The opposite will occur or the southbound direction. Slightly annoying, but no hauling your luggage up and down stairs (or an elevator).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Yes Lincoln Fields is a bad transfer configuration that is really going to be a sore-point moving forward. I assume they changed it so that they could make the Carling Avenue structure more narrow, but I'm not sure.

Airport spur is different. Its a single centre platform with a pocket track behind the platform. The airport train will drop you off and then move into a pocket track. At that point you will have to wait a minute for the mainline train to pick you up and continue northbound. The opposite will occur or the southbound direction. Slightly annoying, but no hauling your luggage up and down stairs (or an elevator).

So they officially changed it to the second configuration? To save maybe a few million? Bunch of morons!! That is going to be hell for thousands of people a day, scrambling to get from one platform to platform. Confusing as all hell. And it's going to be a huge strain on the escalators and elevators, increasing maintenance, and eventually replacement costs significantly.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

So they officially changed it to the second configuration? To save maybe a few million? Bunch of morons!! That is going to be hell for thousands of people a day, scrambling to get from one platform to platform. Confusing as all hell. And it's going to be a huge strain on the escalators and elevators, increasing maintenance, and eventually replacement costs significantly.

The second configuration is the latest as far as I know. And to be clear, I have no idea why they changed it, I can only assume. Whatever the reason, it does not seem worth it.

*Edit - one thing that they may do (speculation) is operate after 11pm entirely from the centre platform and use a timed transfer similar to the South Keys situation. They would similarly need a pocket track east of Lincoln Fields though.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

The second configuration is the latest as far as I know. And to be clear, I have no idea why they changed it, I can only assume. Whatever the reason, it does not seem worth it.

*Edit - one thing that they may do (speculation) is operate after 11pm entirely from the centre platform and use a timed transfer similar to the South Keys situation. They would similarly need a pocket track east of Lincoln Fields though.

So trains heading inbound from both branches would share the centre platform, facilitating transfers between the branches (for those heading from Algonquin to Moodie or the other way around). The side platform would be used for trains coming out of downtown.

When service drops to 15 minutes at night, they would only use one track. Or I guess they could use the tracks on each side of the centre platform and leave the side platform track unused at night.

The only thing that removes is the possibility of jumping on an Algonquin bound train to avoid the crowded downtown platform and transfer to a Moodie train at Lincoln Fields. If that's the case, it isn't too bad.

Two centre platforms us still the ideal scenario.

[rocketphish]

Trucks will stop rumbling through surprised west-end neighbourhood

Tom Spears, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: 48 minutes ago • 1 minute read

Residents of two narrow residential streets in the Carling Avenue-Transitway area will no longer be on a major truck route during LRT Stage 2 construction.

Their councillor, Theresa Kavanagh, said Saturday she has found a way out.

Residents of Connaught Avenue and Tavistock Road received an email on May 4 telling them that for May and June there will be up to 60 trucks a day driving on their streets.

Both streets are residential and have steep hills and no sidewalks. Residents say the truck route was never mentioned in Phase 2 planning until the day the work started, and that the trucks were supposed to come in off Queensview Drive (a wider commercial street) through the OC Transpo property.

The official notice to residents says: “This week the Stage 2 Project Contractor will begin to establish their construction site at Connaught Park, and trucks will be hauling material and equipment in and out of the area.

“In May and June (Monday to Friday) there will be up to 60 trucks a day, which would then be reduced to approximately 20 trucks per day in summer.”

“It just comes as a shock,” said Simon Partridge, president of the Queensway Terrace North Community Association.

But after he heard of the new agreement, he said he was excited and “glad they listened to feedback from residents.”

The truck route had also surprised Kavanagh, who was soon negotiating behind the scenes.

But by early Saturday afternoon she announced that the trucks will return to their originally planned route.

“I can confirm that the truck route for excavation project for Connaught tunnel for #stage2LRT … will now be re-routed to Queensview thru @OC_Transpo depot,” she tweeted.

The community association immediately announced its approval.

“Thank you and all the parties involved for working this out!” it tweeted.

tspears@postmedia.com
twitter.com/TomSpears1

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...-1a9ee28766bb/

[J.OT13]

I received clarification from the City of Ottawa's Stage 2 Team regarding the Lincoln Fields configuration.

Thank you for your email and interest in the stage 2 west extension project.

The design for Lincoln Fields that is being pursued is that of a centre platform and a side platform. This design decision doesn’t mean that everyone will always have to transfer, in fact, no one has to transfer up and over during peak, all eastbound trains go to downtown. Westbound, every other train will head to Baseline or Moodie. Customers may need to get off on the centre platform and wait for the next west bound train to continue to their final destination. During evening hours with a longer headway, Lincoln Fields to Moodie/Bayshore will operate as a shuttle from the single side platform requiring the up and over transfer for customers. The only other times the side platform will be used are in recovery mode from a service interruption, or when planned maintenance activities do not permit access to one of the tracks on the centre platform.

Lastly, the primary rationale that drove this design decision is that of safety. Yes, a center and a side platform is less convenient in those off hours where a passenger will have to get off the westbound train and go up and over to the “shuttle” track. However, this scheme allows a fence between the two adjoining tracks. The risk exists if there is no fence as passengers can be tempted to walk across the tracks to get from one platform to another and potentially be hit by an oncoming train. This is a concern on our type of system where we have low level platforms and it is a short step down to track level.

He included a site plan for the station:



As I understand it, the side platform will only be used late evenings and during service disruptions. Otherwise, the centre platform will be used exclusively. If that's the case, it isn't too bad. It will only be a pain for the few transferring in late evening and night (after 11 pm?).

Bonus, it looks like the bus loop will be tight to the station, and not offset like Stage 1 transfer stations.

[OCCheetos]

I don't think we're able to see the site plan since it's a link to an email attachment. You'll probably have to reupload it somewhere else like imgur.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I received clarification from the City of Ottawa's Stage 2 Team regarding the Lincoln Fields configuration.



He included a site plan for the station:



As I understand it, the side platform will only be used late evenings and during service disruptions. Otherwise, the centre platform will be used exclusively. If that's the case, it isn't too bad. It will only be a pain for the few transferring in late evening and night (after 11 pm?).

Bonus, it looks like the bus loop will be tight to the station, and not offset like Stage 1 transfer stations.

This is a really good point the city made, actually:

Lastly, the primary rationale that drove this design decision is that of safety. Yes, a center and a side platform is less convenient in those off hours where a passenger will have to get off the westbound train and go up and over to the “shuttle” track. However, this scheme allows a fence between the two adjoining tracks. The risk exists if there is no fence as passengers can be tempted to walk across the tracks to get from one platform to another and potentially be hit by an oncoming train. This is a concern on our type of system where we have low level platforms and it is a short step down to track level.

The edge of the tracks really doesn't look nearly as "hostile" in our system as it does in a traditional heavy metro system, so I could 100% see people running across and causing accidents or operational problems. And the only time anyone would have to use stairs to transfer would be during the periods when Moodie-LF runs as a shuttle, which is only after 11pm on weekdays, when ridership is quite low, so no concerns about congestion/flow. Though I would hope the schedule for the shuttle is designed to account for the fact that it would take a couple minutes to make the transfer. Ideally, time it so the Algonquin-bound and downtown-bound trains on the mainline show up around the same time, and have the Moodie spur train layup on the side platform for a 5 minute period with the synchronized arrival times for the two mainline trains in the middle of that 5 minute period. With everything at 15 minute frequencies, should be easy enough to time all that.

If there's any reason for ridership to be higher (say a weeknight event at TD place or something), they could just run it like they do on Friday and Saturday nights for that night, with no spur operation.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I don't think we're able to see the site plan since it's a link to an email attachment. You'll probably have to reupload it somewhere else like imgur.

Sorry about that. Copy-pasting from my email works with Stage 2 (and previously Stage 1) updates.

Here it is. Hope the guy doesn't get in trouble since the site plan hasn't been released to the public yet.

[zzptichka]

What's the problem with people walking across the tracks in such low-speed zones? You could even make the crossing accessible. I don't see the problem honestly. These trains were supposed to run on the streets in mixed traffic at some point.

[Kitchissippi]

An interesting option would be a split-level configuration by stacking the westbound platforms and have ramps/stairs going half level up or down to the eastbound platform. This could actually save money with just one set of elevators with opposing doors that stop at half levels.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by CityTech

This is a really good point the city made, actually:



The edge of the tracks really doesn't look nearly as "hostile" in our system as it does in a traditional heavy metro system, so I could 100% see people running across and causing accidents or operational problems. And the only time anyone would have to use stairs to transfer would be during the periods when Moodie-LF runs as a shuttle, which is only after 11pm on weekdays, when ridership is quite low, so no concerns about congestion/flow. Though I would hope the schedule for the shuttle is designed to account for the fact that it would take a couple minutes to make the transfer. Ideally, time it so the Algonquin-bound and downtown-bound trains on the mainline show up around the same time, and have the Moodie spur train layup on the side platform for a 5 minute period with the synchronized arrival times for the two mainline trains in the middle of that 5 minute period. With everything at 15 minute frequencies, should be easy enough to time all that.

If there's any reason for ridership to be higher (say a weeknight event at TD place or something), they could just run it like they do on Friday and Saturday nights for that night, with no spur operation.

Good Day.
For what it is worth, this is another penny-wise but pound-foolish cost cutter (somehow - I don't exactly see how), or a vision of the customer MUST be protected from themselves even though there is no reason.
If they stayed with the three-track two-center-platform configuration, wherein the center track is the shuttle, customers have absolutely NO reason nor temptation to run the tracks - there is no need to. This is the same as having no reason to enter the tracks at any station for where you are headed - there is no need to. Now if you came to the wrong direction platform, yeah, the temptation without fences is to just run the tracks. Well, that might be the case for LF as well, but only in the off-hours, when a shuttle is not present waiting - an inherent advantage of center-platform configurations for regular hours (when only one center-platform would be in use, in my understanding), and an inherent advantage of the center-track-shuttle configuration for off-hours, when the shuttle in effect makes it a one-huge-center-platform configuration with free flow through the opposite open doors of the shuttle. And a transit cop at the center track can stop that - along with a hefty fine ! (and yes, my opinion is that a t-cop should be there full time.)
As zzptichka noted, the overall risk is lower, esp. as the trains will be travelling slowly at this point anyway, having slowed to pass over the switching grids at either ends of the station.
And the three-track two-platform configuration is simpler to deal with for customers.
The only advantage (and cost-cutter) I can see is a possibly simpler switching layout for cheaper maintenance and less wear-and-tear.
Maybe. We need to see more of the new layout.

Conclusion - I hate it. The bad rumours have come home to roost.

Thx to J.OT13 and his source. We needed to see this sooner rather than later.

To Kitchissippi - a very good thought to try to rescue this configuration.
To the positive, it would probably help in the elevation changes required for the flyover-diveunder guideways just to the south.
Unfortunately, it has more expensive elevators, and more complex staircases and escalators, such that I doubt it will get traction. Pity!

[Richard Eade]

Everyone arriving by bus, or leaving by bus, will need to go up and down to get to a platform. If the Bus loop were raised up to the road level, then there would only be the need for everyone to go either down or up – but it is unlikely that the City will bring in that much fill.

Currently, there are 8 stops at Lincoln Fields; 1A, 1B, and 2A on the Transitway; 3A, 3B, 4A, and 4B on the island; and 5A along Carling Avenue. It appears that OC Transpo is planning for 7 bus stops in the bus loop of the new LRT Lincoln Fields Station. It would seem that OC Transpo is thinking about adding a lot more bus routes to Lincoln Fields, post LRT.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

An interesting option would be a split-level configuration by stacking the westbound platforms and have ramps/stairs going half level up or down to the eastbound platform. This could actually save money with just one set of elevators with opposing doors that stop at half levels.

An issue might be the hight of the upper track and the proximity to Carling Avenue; which all trains must go under.

[TheMatth69]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

What's the problem with people walking across the tracks in such low-speed zones? You could even make the crossing accessible. I don't see the problem honestly. These trains were supposed to run on the streets in mixed traffic at some point.

Except for the fact that they are operated basically like a heavy rail metro system and that they are operated automatically. Don't think that delays and potential deaths are worthy, because a bunch of morons want to cross the tracks just to save a few seconds... *facepalm*

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

An issue might be the hight of the upper track and the proximity to Carling Avenue; which all trains must go under.

The tracks come up from a tunnel before LF, so they could just remain lower and rise later after Carling.

[foolworm]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

So they officially changed it to the second configuration? To save maybe a few million? Bunch of morons!! That is going to be hell for thousands of people a day, scrambling to get from one platform to platform. Confusing as all hell. And it's going to be a huge strain on the escalators and elevators, increasing maintenance, and eventually replacement costs significantly.

That's because you're not looking at it from a passenger (convenience) perspective, rather than a designer / operator (safety) perspective.

Rule 1: Island platforms are ALWAYS more dangerous than side-loading platforms, because users can encroach on the track from both sides rather than just one.

Rule 2: Minimize trains switching tracks to reduce the chance of collisions.

With that in mind, it is evident then that the change in platform configuration was a refinement, not cost-cutting.

This is on top of the safety explanation given in the City response, which is a mitigation against bad behaviour (jaywalking) rather than accidents.

You may not like the outcome but if there's an incident and the designer is put on the hot seat, the accusation of risking lives just so people can save a trip on the escalator is pretty damning.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by foolworm

That's because you're not looking at it from a passenger (convenience) perspective, rather than a designer / operator (safety) perspective.

Rule 1: Island platforms are ALWAYS more dangerous than side-loading platforms, because users can encroach on the track from both sides rather than just one.

Rule 2: Minimize trains switching tracks to reduce the chance of collisions.

With that in mind, it is evident then that the change in platform configuration was a refinement, not cost-cutting.

This is on top of the safety explanation given in the City response, which is a mitigation against bad behaviour (jaywalking) rather than accidents.

You may not like the outcome but if there's an incident and the designer is put on the hot seat, the accusation of risking lives just so people can save a trip on the escalator is pretty damning.

For some reason, I was under the impression that all three tracks and both platforms would be used all day, everyday, which would have made this new configuration a disaster. With the explanation provided by the Stage 2 team, where the centre platform is used almost exclusively, I'm satisfied with the new layout.

Along the same lines as CityTech's comment, Transfers between the branches will be simple, involving only a walk across the centre platform. When the side platform is used during low-frequency hours, it should be fairly easy to time the arrivals to facilitate transfers (minute 0, Moodie train arrives, Minute 3, Algonquin and Downtown trains arrive, minute 7.5, Moodie train leaves).

I understand the safety concern, considering we have seen a handful of people try to cross, even with the barrier (daredevil idiots). We could make an argument about those who accidentally fall on the tracks, who would then have two options to get back up to safety, delaying their reaction time.

[Horus]

Despite constant messaging, they still couldn't get people to stop holding doors so I can't imagine how difficult it will be to institute a "you can walk across the tracks here, but not there" policy.
It's best to stay consistent and keep people off the tracks at all places.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

To Kitchissippi - a very good thought to try to rescue this configuration.
To the positive, it would probably help in the elevation changes required for the flyover-diveunder guideways just to the south.
Unfortunately, it has more expensive elevators, and more complex staircases and escalators, such that I doubt it will get traction. Pity!

It doesn't really cost extra to have elevators stop at half floors, and the stairs and escalators (if even necessary) are only half flights. The beauty of a split level configuration is that a transfer is one level away at most, say if you have to get off an Algonquin-bound train to get on a Moodie bound short line. This involves going up and down to full levels in the current configuration. A transfer from a short line to a downtown-bound line only is half a level.

I'm thinking of a split-level three-track version of Montreal's Lionel-Groulx station: