Provincial Politics

[Build.It]

Doug Ford getting scrutinized by the media again for telling Ontario residents where they can buy alcohol while the LCBO goes on strike. Call me an asshole, but I don't feel any sympathy for these overpaid glorified grocery clerks.

https://youtu.be/XhZlMuU3Vh8?si=Rr4CzVKBcdlhLWgD

[feepa]

perhaps this could go in the ontario section?

[casper]

Originally Posted by Build.It

Doug Ford getting scrutinized by the media again for telling Ontario residents where they can buy alcohol while the LCBO goes on strike. Call me an asshole, but I don't feel any sympathy for these overpaid glorified grocery clerks.

https://youtu.be/XhZlMuU3Vh8?si=Rr4CzVKBcdlhLWgD

I think it is in poor taste to have a Premier doing a commercial for the liquor industry. Strike or no strike.

As for the liquor store clerks. They are exercising their legal right to strike. The public should exercise its legal right to shop at other outlets. Hard to show sympathy for those who through a monology are being paid far more than the norm for their industry.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Build.It

Doug Ford getting scrutinized by the media again for telling Ontario residents where they can buy alcohol while the LCBO goes on strike. Call me an asshole, but I don't feel any sympathy for these overpaid glorified grocery clerks.

https://youtu.be/XhZlMuU3Vh8?si=Rr4CzVKBcdlhLWgD

With minimum wage increases they really aren't that overpaid anymore. It's certainly a bit more of a responsible job than working at Loblaws for not much more pay.

Them striking now seems assinine as Ford is happy to close the whole thing up and give it away to the private sector. Barely anybody wants an alchohol monopoly anymore but giving away a $20 Billion company for nothing is crazy. The dividend is about 1/2% of HST revenue. Who wants to pay that to buy alchohol at the corner store?

[Build.It]

Originally Posted by feepa

perhaps this could go in the ontario section?

I could've posted this in the Federal Politics thread

[Build.It]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

With minimum wage increases they really aren't that overpaid anymore. It's certainly a bit more of a responsible job than working at Loblaws for not much more pay.

Them striking now seems assinine as Ford is happy to close the whole thing up and give it away to the private sector. Barely anybody wants an alchohol monopoly anymore but giving away a $20 Billion company for nothing is crazy. The dividend is about 1/2% of HST revenue. Who wants to pay that to buy alchohol at the corner store?

You can buy beer and wine at Loblaws too. And higher minimum wage means that the minimum requirements of workers have gone up, in the eyes of employers.

Ford has had a few battles with unions in his time and isn't shy about using back to work legislation. Don't see him using that here, since it's just booze. But he isn't scared to put unions in their place.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Build.It

You can buy beer and wine at Loblaws too. And higher minimum wage means that the minimum requirements of workers have gone up, in the eyes of employers.

Ford has had a few battles with unions in his time and isn't shy about using back to work legislation. Don't see him using that here, since it's just booze. But he isn't scared to put unions in their place.

Requirments of employees have gone up? Interesting theory. The rapid rise in minimum wage has made the few dollars above minimum wage jobs less desireable. These were usually were either more difficult, required more skills or in the case of the LCBO were unionized in highly profitable industries. Sometimes we think all the extra labour costs are wasted especially in a government monopoly but Costco has shown that paying people a bit more saves a lot on training and turnover so isn't all wasted. Especially if the LCBO hires openly and not based on some patronage network. It certainly means you aren't going to give your younger brother's friends alchohol as it's a job worth protecting. Now probably we don't care about that much anymore but for a long time it was the main benefit.

[Build.It]

What I meant was that an adult who in the past could barely get hired at $12/hr is now unemployable. It probably sounds unimaginable to some, but there are a lot of these people - most often it's those with low IQ, or some sort of learning disability. Not their fault, but you also can't expect employers to take a loss on their labour. I'm not saying LCBO workers fall in this category, just talking about minimum wage generally.

But if I was paying you $12/hr and then the government forced me to start paying you $15/hr, then I'm going to expect 25% more output from you to make up for the extra cost. Alternatively I would cut my workforce by 25% and run smaller shifts with more competent people who are actually worth $15/hr.

My point is that minimum wage isn't the compassionate policy people think it is. It actually punishes low skill people by making them unemployable in a lot of cases.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by feepa

perhaps this could go in the ontario section?

No way, Ontarians are so important they need to talk about their provincial politics at the national level.

I for one cannot wait for the Toronto municipal politics thread here because Toronto is the only city in Canada that matters.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Build.It

What I meant was that an adult who in the past could barely get hired at $12/hr is now unemployable. It probably sounds unimaginable to some, but there are a lot of these people - most often it's those with low IQ, or some sort of learning disability. Not their fault, but you also can't expect employers to take a loss on their labour. I'm not saying LCBO workers fall in this category, just talking about minimum wage generally.

But if I was paying you $12/hr and then the government forced me to start paying you $15/hr, then I'm going to expect 25% more output from you to make up for the extra cost. Alternatively I would cut my workforce by 25% and run smaller shifts with more competent people who are actually worth $15/hr.

My point is that minimum wage isn't the compassionate policy people think it is. It actually punishes low skill people by making them unemployable in a lot of cases.

This is typical entrepreuner bro theory but actual evidence suggests it's mostly untrue. It does make it a little harder for low skilled and young people to get employment. But it's marginal.

You expect maximum output from every employee so I hope you don't tell a minimum wage worker they need to increase output by 25%. So you think you can cut 25% of your worse employees and produce the same output because they got a wage increase from minimum wage hike? They will leave and go work one of the many jobs requiring no effort. A small clothing store for example.

Sure minimum wage does cause some distortions but I'd rather see low skilled people who actually work get more money rather than taxing business and giving it to them as welfare or disability. And granted we are doing both right now for sure.

[Build.It]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

No way, Ontarians are so important they need to talk about their provincial politics at the national level.

I for one cannot wait for the Toronto municipal politics thread here because Toronto is the only city in Canada that matters.

The thread is called provincial politics, not Ontario Politics. You can talk about NFLD provincial politics as well if you want.

You'll notice that Casper and YOW had intelligent things to say about the original post despite neither of them living in Ontario. If I posted this in the Ontario subsection it would've likely been missed.

(And no one is forcing you to click on the thread BTW)

[Build.It]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This is typical entrepreuner bro theory but actual evidence suggests it's mostly untrue. It does make it a little harder for low skilled and young people to get employment. But it's marginal.

You expect maximum output from every employee so I hope you don't tell a minimum wage worker they need to increase output by 25%. So you think you can cut 25% of your worse employees and produce the same output because they got a wage increase from minimum wage hike? They will leave and go work one of the many jobs requiring no effort. A small clothing store for example.

Sure minimum wage does cause some distortions but I'd rather see low skilled people who actually work get more money rather than taxing business and giving it to them as welfare or disability. And granted we are doing both right now for sure.

I'm not talking about you or your peers. I'm talking about the addicts, those with low intelligence, or some sort of disability. These people would never get hired for an "easy" minimum wage job at a clothing store (typically filled by young attractive female students).

That "marginal" portion of the population is now living in tents across Vancouver, Toronto, Hamilton, etc. These people are effectively priced out of the labour market. Their work is not valuable enough to justify paying them minimum wage even.

And how do low skill workers or young workers improve their skills? By starting at the bottom and gradually getting better. But if we make it impossible for them to even get into a bottom level job, what's going to happen to their skill level over time? It'll never improve and many of them will be unemployable for the bulk of their adult life.

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you how busineses work. For me to hire you I need to be able to make a profit from your work. And making a sizeable subset of people unemployable is a terrible solution.

[Innsertnamehere]

The LCBO union is out to lunch. Alcohol liberalization is almost universally popular in the province and they will not make inroads on the issue that they are hoping to.

Besides, the reforms the province is bringing in is honestly mostly targeted at the Beer Store's business, not the LCBO's. I don't imagine traffic to the LCBO will decrease significantly post-reform.

I don't get the criticism of Ford posting that map. It's a map of where to buy booze - it's actually a bit of a public health issue as alcoholics need access or will suffer withdrawal and flood hospitals. The LCBO has not had a monopoly on the sale of alcohol for a long time, It's totally fair for the province to create a map to try to support local brewers, etc. through the strike. It's not union busting at all in my eyes.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

No way, Ontarians are so important they need to talk about their provincial politics at the national level.

I for one cannot wait for the Toronto municipal politics thread here because Toronto is the only city in Canada that matters.

dude why the hostility? Post BC Politics if you want. Nothing said this thread needs to be Ontario only. It's called "provincial politics"

This is why western alienation is stupid, people like you are getting mad at upset at nothing

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Build.It

And how do low skill workers or young workers improve their skills? By starting at the bottom and gradually getting better. But if we make it impossible for them to even get into a bottom level job, what's going to happen to their skill level over time? It'll never improve and many of them will be unemployable for the bulk of their adult life.

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you how busineses work. For me to hire you I need to be able to make a profit from your work. And making a sizeable subset of people unemployable is a terrible solution.

If a few dollars an hour is make or break for your business, you're on the way out anyway.

Nobody is working exceptionally hard for minimum wage, except maybe those in kitchens and some fast food. Those are tiring (though relatively mentally simple) jobs.

You sound like the kind of employer people can't wait to quit from.

[Build.It]

If I have 20 PT people, a $3/hr raise is an extra $60K of profit per year I need to generate.

Assuming a standard 10% restaurant profit margin, that's an extra $600K in net sales required for that small increase.

I'm not talking about my business specifically (my people make way more than min wage), but am speaking from the perspective of a business owner.