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  #201  
Old Posted May 2, 2022, 6:41 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Sprawl is not the issue, sprawl was the secondary effect. The issue is that Detroit was more strongly impacted by white flight than any other city in the Rust Belt (hell, more strongly affected than any other city in the country). By and large, inner core black neighborhoods have had very different population trajectories than inner core non-black neighborhoods essentially everywhere in the country, thus Detroit (as a city mostly comprised of black neighborhoods) was particularly negatively impacted by this dynamic.

Of course, the existence of plentiful affordable first-ring suburbs also hastened black flight, which might be your point. But that's not so much an effect of sprawl as it is an effect of housing prices. There are plenty of examples of (more) intact black neighborhoods on the East Coast (particularly metro NYC and points northward), with plenty of suburban sprawl in the metro areas, but high housing prices stopped significant black suburbanization, which put a limit on how much black flight could take place.
No, sprawl was the primary factor, and white flight was the secondary effect.
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  #202  
Old Posted May 2, 2022, 6:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
Or make people to move farther away to Atlanta or Charlotte sprawl...

I know virtually nothing about the US regional politics, but I guess such proposal would be impossible to be approved on suburban Michigan.
You do lose some people with growth management. Big houses with big yards aren't as cheap anymore. You might get leapfrog exurbia, and you probably lose some people to other regions. Much depends on whether the policies are consistent for a large radius, vs. a pressure valve within commute range. You'll do better with more state control.

That said, the core city and older suburbs tend to be healthier, so you gain some growth from that. There's more incentive to renovate old buildings rather than leaving them. That plus infill creates and upward spiral, where each wave creates more attraction for the next wave.
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  #203  
Old Posted May 2, 2022, 7:00 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I'm really not sure why you're trying to argue this so much. Nobody wants Detroit to grow more than I do, but as someone who knows Detroit very well I'm extremely skeptical that it will happen any time soon. There hasn't even been a discussion of, let alone an official policy change to fix the sprawling mess of Metro Detroit. And it's not just Detroit. Michigan is home to a number of the most distressed municipalities in the country, and it's not just because of de-industrialization.
That's not a matter for you or I rooting for Detroit.

That's about the undeniable fact that a lot is going on Detroit since the 2010's, hence the core boom, hence the non-Black population boom.

All of that was completely absent since the 1940's. Black Flight will exhaust itself in one way or another (from Black people stop leaving or fewer and fewer Blacks left to leave) and as long as the city keeps attracting new dwellers as they did rather well in the past 2010's, population in the city proper will stop declining eventually. That's the logical consequence of the current trends.

And obviously, if the US becomes more liberal to immigrants, things will become even easier. But that's still a big if.

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I personally think the Rust Belt/de-industrialization excuse is a disservice to Detroit because it glosses over the structural issues that are contributing to Detroit and other Michigan cities being in a perpetual state of decline. Detroit has had a much milder experience with de-industrialization than places like Buffalo or Pittsburgh. There was no good reason for Detroit to go bankrupt, other than a lack of political will to deal with the sprawl issue. The dire straits of Detroit is mostly a self-inflicted wound. There is zero evidence that the true issues are being addressed at all.
Indeed Detroit's case is much more extreme than its peers, but Detroit is now a different place. For one thing, it became much smaller vis-à-vis to the metropolitan area and the hatred towards the city turned into indifference or even mild enthusiasm (hence the thousands people moving in).

If you want a very pessimistic Rust Belt story, go to Flint or Youngstown. Those places will disappear and there's nothing to prevent it. Detroit is in a much more confortable position.
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  #204  
Old Posted May 2, 2022, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
No, sprawl was the primary factor, and white flight was the secondary effect.
I mean, let's consider on the flipside Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh has been ranked one of the sprawliest metros in the U.S. by some metrics, which may be in part due to topography (can't build as dense in the steep slope areas) and the historically polycentric nature of the metro (lots of small cities/mill towns were built out in the late 19th/early 20th century once they ran out of industrial land in Pittsburgh, which developed their own "suburbs" in turn). Due to being a shrinking MSA overall, real estate prices in lots of these suburbs are also dirt cheap.

Yet if you look at Pittsburgh, you see there are tons of intact areas within the city still, when compared to Detroit. Indeed, the historically blighted areas are limited to maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the city tops, with most of the remainder pretty much intact. There are neighborhoods that remained middle (and even upper-middle) class and desirable through the 20th century, and there are other neighborhoods that went through a period of undesirability and later gentrified, retaining 80%-90% of their original housing stock.

The major difference between Pittsburgh and Detroit is simply Pittsburgh wasn't as heavily impacted by the Great Migration, with large-scale black migration ending decades earlier. Less neighborhoods were impacted by white flight, and less neighborhoods ended up blighted. To be clear, there are examples of blighted white urban neighborhoods - areas like Spring Garden, Esplen, East Deutschtown, etc. - but these mostly tended to be areas which were cut off by highway construction or similar issues. There were plenty of working-class white neighborhoods which survived fine, like the South Side, Lawrenceville, Bloomfield, Polish Hill, etc. - and then gentrified from the 1990s onward. Populations in these neighborhoods fell dramatically due to shrinking household sizes (and there was some abandonment in isolated places) but it didn't get to the point of no return before cities became fashionable again.

In contrast, every single majority urban black neighborhood ended up impacted by abandonment and blight by the late 20th century (there are some black "suburbs in the city" which held up pretty well). Still, the dynamic of increased abandonment within areas with a growing black population still continues to this day in some areas of the West End and Southern Hilltop portions of the city.

Of course, with many dirt cheap suburbs, the black population in Pittsburgh is quickly suburbanizing, just like everywhere else in the Rust Belt. Pittsburgh lost 10% of its black population (which was basically the only thing which stopped growth last decade, since we shrunk by less than 1%) in a single decade, with the emptying out of historically black neighborhoods in the East End particularly notable (in some cases the decline was due to gentrification, in others due to continued blight/abandonment). But because the overall black population is relatively small this is spread lightly throughout the "suburban" portions of Allegheny County (though focused to the East) with it not looking like any new suburbs will demographically transition any time soon.
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  #205  
Old Posted May 2, 2022, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
You do lose some people with growth management. Big houses with big yards aren't as cheap anymore. You might get leapfrog exurbia, and you probably lose some people to other regions. Much depends on whether the policies are consistent for a large radius, vs. a pressure valve within commute range. You'll do better with more state control.

That said, the core city and older suburbs tend to be healthier, so you gain some growth from that. There's more incentive to renovate old buildings rather than leaving them. That plus infill creates and upward spiral, where each wave creates more attraction for the next wave.
As Livingston County growth slowed a lot on the last two decades (35% to 15% to 7%) in a period Metro Detroit went from -3.3% (2000's) to +2.2% (2010's), I don't think sprawl is a villain as it used to be.

Regional economy is a more important factor now. If it's doing well, the suburbs will thrive and this time, probably the city proper as well.

Specially for me, living in Downtown of a big, dense Brazilian metropolis, it's crazy to think on how those people like to live in this Bloomfield suburb that looks like a forest. Like, without a car they can get absolute nothing. Even to the neighbour's house, driving is the best way. It's pretty, sure, but that's definitely not for me.
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  #206  
Old Posted May 2, 2022, 7:39 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
The major difference between Pittsburgh and Detroit is simply Pittsburgh wasn't as heavily impacted by the Great Migration
No the major difference is that Pittsburgh is geographically constrained and Detroit is not.
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  #207  
Old Posted May 2, 2022, 7:42 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I mean, let's consider on the flipside Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh has been ranked one of the sprawliest metros in the U.S. by some metrics, which may be in part due to topography (can't build as dense in the steep slope areas) and the historically polycentric nature of the metro (lots of small cities/mill towns were built out in the late 19th/early 20th century once they ran out of industrial land in Pittsburgh, which developed their own "suburbs" in turn). Due to being a shrinking MSA overall, real estate prices in lots of these suburbs are also dirt cheap.

Yet if you look at Pittsburgh, you see there are tons of intact areas within the city still, when compared to Detroit. Indeed, the historically blighted areas are limited to maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the city tops, with most of the remainder pretty much intact. There are neighborhoods that remained middle (and even upper-middle) class and desirable through the 20th century, and there are other neighborhoods that went through a period of undesirability and later gentrified, retaining 80%-90% of their original housing stock.

The major difference between Pittsburgh and Detroit is simply Pittsburgh wasn't as heavily impacted by the Great Migration, with large-scale black migration ending decades earlier. Less neighborhoods were impacted by white flight, and less neighborhoods ended up blighted. To be clear, there are examples of blighted white urban neighborhoods - areas like Spring Garden, Esplen, East Deutschtown, etc. - but these mostly tended to be areas which were cut off by highway construction or similar issues. There were plenty of working-class white neighborhoods which survived fine, like the South Side, Lawrenceville, Bloomfield, Polish Hill, etc. - and then gentrified from the 1990s onward. Populations in these neighborhoods fell dramatically due to shrinking household sizes (and there was some abandonment in isolated places) but it didn't get to the point of no return before cities became fashionable again.

In contrast, every single majority urban black neighborhood ended up impacted by abandonment and blight by the late 20th century (there are some black "suburbs in the city" which held up pretty well). Still, the dynamic of increased abandonment within areas with a growing black population still continues to this day in some areas of the West End and Southern Hilltop portions of the city.

Of course, with many dirt cheap suburbs, the black population in Pittsburgh is quickly suburbanizing, just like everywhere else in the Rust Belt. Pittsburgh lost 10% of its black population (which was basically the only thing which stopped growth last decade, since we shrunk by less than 1%) in a single decade, with the emptying out of historically black neighborhoods in the East End particularly notable (in some cases the decline was due to gentrification, in others due to continued blight/abandonment). But because the overall black population is relatively small this is spread lightly throughout the "suburban" portions of Allegheny County (though focused to the East) with it not looking like any new suburbs will demographically transition any time soon.
Detroit wasn't that much more black than Pittsburgh mid-century. Detroit was 18% black at peak population (1950) versus Pittsburgh's 12% black at the same time.
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  #208  
Old Posted May 2, 2022, 7:51 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I mean, let's consider on the flipside Pittsburgh.
An even better flipside example would be Chicago.

A flat industrial great lakes beast that has sprawled itself out to hell and back.

But because white flight was nowhere near as complete as it was in Detroit, Chicago city proper has faired much better over the past 70 years.
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  #209  
Old Posted May 2, 2022, 7:55 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
An even better flipside example would be Chicago.

A flat industrial great lakes beast that has sprawled itself out to hell and back.

But because white flight was nowhere near as complete as it was in Detroit, Chicago city proper has faired much better over the past 70 years.
Chicagoland has continued to grow quite a bit postwar, including adding about 2 million since 1970. Metro Detroit still hasn't set a new peak population since 1970.
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  #210  
Old Posted May 2, 2022, 8:26 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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No the major difference is that Pittsburgh is geographically constrained and Detroit is not.
Eh, kinda. There's still plenty of greenfield-type land within Allegheny County. The area in the southwest of the county (around the airport) is just getting built out now, and the northeastern sections of the county (up Route 28 past Fox Chapel, save for a couple old mill towns) is still mostly undeveloped rural land.

There are some exurbs in the adjoining counties (Murraysville for Westmoreland, Peters for Washington, and Cranberry for Butler) but only just, with most of the land area of these counties still shrinking rural townships or old mill town boroughs.

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Detroit wasn't that much more black than Pittsburgh mid-century. Detroit was 18% black at peak population (1950) versus Pittsburgh's 12% black at the same time.
Yeah I know. But in Pittsburgh, black net migration basically ceased by 1960, while Detroit had another two decades of it. As I said, Detroit ended up with more black migration, which resulted in more white flight, which resulted in more urban blight, but Pittsburgh was less impacted by the Great Migration.

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An even better flipside example would be Chicago.
I thought about Chicago, but my impression is suburban real estate prices tend to be a bit pricier than either Detroit or Pittsburgh, due to the metro as a whole not having shrunk. This means there are more cost limitations on suburban flight.

There really are few cost limitations in Pittsburgh. The days of habitable sub-$100,000 homes outside of bad neighborhoods are pretty much done everywhere, but you can still find stuff like this in lots of places.

Last edited by eschaton; May 2, 2022 at 10:15 PM.
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  #211  
Old Posted May 2, 2022, 9:24 PM
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Chicagoland has continued to grow quite a bit postwar, including adding about 2 million since 1970. Metro Detroit still hasn't set a new peak population since 1970.
Detroit, either by strict (without Filnt, Ann Arbor and Monroe areas) or by broader definition (including them), actually peaked in 2000. On the broader definition, 2020 is higher than 1970.

Pittsburgh, on the other hand, peaked in 1960 Census and lost inhabitants every single census up to 2020, when they reversed the decline. I'd say Detroit did not go as well Chicago, but not as bad as Pittsburgh either. Cleveland is the closest comparison.
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  #212  
Old Posted May 2, 2022, 10:19 PM
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As Livingston County growth slowed a lot on the last two decades (35% to 15% to 7%) in a period Metro Detroit went from -3.3% (2000's) to +2.2% (2010's), I don't think sprawl is a villain as it used to be.

Regional economy is a more important factor now. If it's doing well, the suburbs will thrive and this time, probably the city proper as well.
It's still a factor.

Your numbers are obviously just part of the story, but even then, that county still grew faster than the metro, and at a time when Detroit still lost population.
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  #213  
Old Posted May 3, 2022, 2:44 AM
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You do lose some people with growth management. Big houses with big yards aren't as cheap anymore. You might get leapfrog exurbia, and you probably lose some people to other regions. Much depends on whether the policies are consistent for a large radius, vs. a pressure valve within commute range. You'll do better with more state control.

That said, the core city and older suburbs tend to be healthier, so you gain some growth from that. There's more incentive to renovate old buildings rather than leaving them. That plus infill creates and upward spiral, where each wave creates more attraction for the next wave.
How do you prevent "rural" development that sails very close to the threshold, though?

Sounds like a formula for 4 acre "farms" that end up creating a choking noose of exurban sprawl which becomes really hard to develop later because it's fragmented and full of NIMBYs.
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  #214  
Old Posted May 3, 2022, 3:24 AM
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My region has that issue to an extent. We have areas that allow five-acre "farms" and 10-acre "farms." They exist, but they're expensive (because there aren't a ton of suitable places), we don't make it easier to drive to them, and they represent relatively few housing units vs suburban subdivisions.
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  #215  
Old Posted May 3, 2022, 12:04 PM
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Is there a single metro in the country outside of Portland which has growth management?

I mean, even Portland doesn't completely count, given there's still unconstrained sprawl on the Washington side of the metro.
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  #216  
Old Posted May 3, 2022, 12:19 PM
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Is there a single metro in the country outside of Portland which has growth management?

I mean, even Portland doesn't completely count, given there's still unconstrained sprawl on the Washington side of the metro.
Crawford and iheartthed said both NJ and CT don't have greenfield developments anymore, but there are still explosive growth on census tracts/minor census divisions them between Trenton and the suburban fringes of Northeast NJ.
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  #217  
Old Posted May 3, 2022, 12:28 PM
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Crawford and iheartthed said both NJ and CT don't have greenfield developments anymore, but there are still explosive growth on census tracts/minor census divisions them between Trenton and the suburban fringes of Northeast NJ.
This isn't true. Most of the exurban counties in the tri-state area have declining population, and haven't grown in decades.

The region has defacto growth restrictions. Essentially NIMBYs force multi-acre development minimums, and restrict water/sewerage expansion and road paving. And county land trusts buy large tracts. There's a boomer obsession with faux-country lifestyles. Can't do much sprawl on wells, with four-acre minimums.
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  #218  
Old Posted May 3, 2022, 12:36 PM
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This isn't true. Most of the exurban counties in the tri-state area have declining population, and haven't grown in decades.

The region has defacto growth restrictions. Essentially NIMBYs force multi-acre development minimums, and restrict water/sewerage expansion and road paving. There's a boomer obsession with faux-country lifestyles. Can't do much sprawl on wells, with four-acre minimums.
Some minor civil divisions in the area:

----------------------------------------- 1990 ----- 2000 ----- 2010 ----- 2020
West Windson (Mercer) ------- 15,833 --- 21,892 --- 27,153 --- 29,518
Robinsville (Mercer) -------------- 5,815 --- 10,275 --- 13,643 --- 15,476
Upper Freehold (Monmouth) --- 3,238 ---- 4,290 ----- 6,918 ---- 7,273
South Brunswick (Middlesex) - 25,632 -- 37,754 --- 43,419 --- 47,043
Franklin (Somerset) ------------- 42,773 -- 50,902 --- 62,335 --- 68,364
Jackson (Ocean) -----------------33,262 --- 42,824 --- 54,890 --- 58,544
Lakewood (Ocean) ------------- 44,999 --- 60,363 --- 92,799 -- 135,158

And there are several more that grew incredibly fast in the 1990's and 2000's and only slowed down in the 2010's.
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  #219  
Old Posted May 3, 2022, 2:25 PM
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Detroit, either by strict (without Filnt, Ann Arbor and Monroe areas) or by broader definition (including them), actually peaked in 2000. On the broader definition, 2020 is higher than 1970.
That's because the rural counties slightly offset the urban population decline. Core "Metro Detroit" is pretty easy to track. It's made up of Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb counties. These counties roughly correlate with the Detroit urban area as well, which has almost certainly not reached a new peak since 1970 unless they start to combine it with Ann Arbor.

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Pittsburgh, on the other hand, peaked in 1960 Census and lost inhabitants every single census up to 2020, when they reversed the decline. I'd say Detroit did not go as well Chicago, but not as bad as Pittsburgh either. Cleveland is the closest comparison.
No denying that Pittsburgh was in far worse shape at a regional level. Actually, that's been the point I was stressing throughout this thread. Pittsburgh, Buffalo, etc., had much more severe regional declines, but milder core declines.

The only reason the city of Detroit fell below 1 million in population is land usage policies in Michigan. There's no other good reason to explain it. It wasn't because of the economy. And it wasn't because of a regional population collapse. The cause was runaway sprawl and this hasn't been fixed. I'm not optimistic that we're going to see some dramatic reversal in Detroit until there is a policy response to sprawl in Metro Detroit.
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  #220  
Old Posted May 3, 2022, 2:28 PM
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Some minor civil divisions in the area:

----------------------------------------- 1990 ----- 2000 ----- 2010 ----- 2020
West Windson (Mercer) ------- 15,833 --- 21,892 --- 27,153 --- 29,518
Robinsville (Mercer) -------------- 5,815 --- 10,275 --- 13,643 --- 15,476
Upper Freehold (Monmouth) --- 3,238 ---- 4,290 ----- 6,918 ---- 7,273
South Brunswick (Middlesex) - 25,632 -- 37,754 --- 43,419 --- 47,043
Franklin (Somerset) ------------- 42,773 -- 50,902 --- 62,335 --- 68,364
Jackson (Ocean) -----------------33,262 --- 42,824 --- 54,890 --- 58,544
Lakewood (Ocean) ------------- 44,999 --- 60,363 --- 92,799 -- 135,158

And there are several more that grew incredibly fast in the 1990's and 2000's and only slowed down in the 2010's.
Yes, these are all minimal growth, as the Census data confirms. Basically no growth except for Lakewood, which is a dense, fast growing Orthodox Jewish area.

What about posting the rest of NJ, NY and CT? All minimal growth or no growth, excepting Orthodox areas. You left out basically every part of the tri-state that isn't growing, which happens to be every part of the tri-state that has restrictive exurban zoning.
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