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  #341  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 7:45 PM
masterwhite masterwhite is offline
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He should of knocked em down while he had the chance. Now those buildings are just vacant and not doing anything for our city
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  #342  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 8:56 PM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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They are doing more as a vacant streetwall than an empty lot would.
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  #343  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 9:17 PM
CaptainKirk CaptainKirk is offline
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They weren't vacant until the owners kicked out the tenants.

Gore Park is the historic heart of Hamilton and those buildings date before Confederation, and were designed by the prominent architect William Thomas.

They should be treated as architectural treasurses.
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  #344  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by masterwhite View Post
He should of knocked em down while he had the chance. Now those buildings are just vacant and not doing anything for our city
Yes... because a giant, empty gravel lot at the core of the downtown would do so much more...
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  #345  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 1:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CaptainKirk View Post
They weren't vacant until the owners kicked out the tenants.

Gore Park is the historic heart of Hamilton and those buildings date before Confederation, and were designed by the prominent architect William Thomas.

They should be treated as architectural treasurses.
They're okay, but not amazing. Replace them with something clean, modern, and bigger that's of good quality and I'd be happy. Tear them down and leave a parking lot and I'm not.
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  #346  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 2:11 AM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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Replace them with something clean, modern, and bigger that's of good quality and I'd be happy.
Something like jackson square? or effort trust? or city centre?
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  #347  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 5:22 AM
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A vacant lot in that location wouldn't be vacant for very long. It's a way better situation to walk into than the state of things now.
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  #348  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 6:29 AM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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A vacant lot in that location wouldn't be vacant for very long. It's a way better situation to walk into than the state of things now.
Maybe? Possibly? But only if it's on the open market (which it isn't).

Do we really want to live with the fallout of a war of attrition between WB and the city, waiting for them to acquire and demolish the entire block before there's any hope of new development? How long will that take? We'll have empty lots for the entire duration. WB has already said they are not interested in selling parcels.

We can see how well the "if you demolish it, they will come" model is working elsewhere at King and James...







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  #349  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 6:30 AM
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Originally Posted by davidcappi View Post
A vacant lot in that location wouldn't be vacant for very long. It's a way better situation to walk into than the state of things now.
Like the vacant lot where Robinson's and Royal Bank used to be? Or the vacant lot just behind these buildings? Or the vacant lot at James and King William? Or...

Those are all parking lots, so technically not "vacant" I suppose. But they're definitely not productive land uses. I fear the same would be so for these properties, given that Blanchard has not communicated anything more than vague ideas.
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  #350  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 6:33 AM
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Originally Posted by coalminecanary View Post
We can see how well the "if you demolish it, they will come" model is working elsewhere at King and James...
I should have typed faster.
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  #351  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 10:35 AM
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WB had already assembled the land they require for their redevelopment plans at King and James. It is only a matter of time before the redevelopment starts. It is easy to make a logical leap that the lack of a publicly presented plan means there is a lack of a plan, but that doesn’t mean that is the correct conclusion.

With regards to the wringing of hands over the excessive amount of empty lots in downtown Hamilton, I would suggest the anxiety is misplaced. The city is on the cusp of a redevelopment explosion. Developers that have been hedging their bets on when to redevelop now see that the stars have aligned for Hamilton. We can see that in the redevelopment of the lands Vranich assembled at Bay between Main and King. A couple years ago, he was painted as the evil pariah turning the downtown into parking lots. In the past year, those parking lots have been transformed into redevelopment worth over $100m.

If you look back to Toronto in the 1980's, it's downtown was pockmarked by many open land not unlike Hamilton is today. At the time, many people in Toronto were as worried about the health of their inner city in the same way many of us worry about Hamilton today. The key is to remember that the empty lots are not to be viewed as a blight; they are the sign of an impending renaissance, kind of like our city is dotted with cocoons nearing the stage of chrysalis. The city is finally shaking the economic pains it has endured since the 90's. I am confident that, in ten years's time, we will see what has started at Bay and Main spread across all the lands that have been assembled by developers like Yale and WB.
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  #352  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
With regards to the wringing of hands over the excessive amount of empty lots in downtown Hamilton, I would suggest the anxiety is misplaced. The city is on the cusp of a redevelopment explosion. Developers that have been hedging their bets on when to redevelop now see that the stars have aligned for Hamilton. We can see that in the redevelopment of the lands Vranich assembled at Bay between Main and King. A couple years ago, he was painted as the evil pariah turning the downtown into parking lots. In the past year, those parking lots have been transformed into redevelopment worth over $100m.
Just to clarify, the only parking lot that he developed is at George and Caroline. The Hilton wasn't a parking lot until he demolished the old HMP garage. He does deserve plenty of credit, however. We can't say the same about WB.
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  #353  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
WB had already assembled the land they require for their redevelopment plans at King and James. It is only a matter of time before the redevelopment starts. It is easy to make a logical leap that the lack of a publicly presented plan means there is a lack of a plan, but that doesn’t mean that is the correct conclusion.

With regards to the wringing of hands over the excessive amount of empty lots in downtown Hamilton, I would suggest the anxiety is misplaced. The city is on the cusp of a redevelopment explosion. Developers that have been hedging their bets on when to redevelop now see that the stars have aligned for Hamilton. We can see that in the redevelopment of the lands Vranich assembled at Bay between Main and King. A couple years ago, he was painted as the evil pariah turning the downtown into parking lots. In the past year, those parking lots have been transformed into redevelopment worth over $100m.
I don’t think it’s possible to know for certain that the city is “on the cusp” of anything. I think you’re right that Hamilton is in a good position for good development downtown right now, and we have seen a bit of it already, but we could be wrong, and others might see it that way. And the “developers” (or at least property speculators) who have been “hedging their bet” by turning the downtown into a sea of parking lots might be fickle, and might change their mind if the stars seem out of alignment for whatever reason in the near future.

Someone else may know exactly how many unproductive parking lots Vrancor owns. How many of those have actually been redeveloped? How long did we wait for even those to be used, and how long will we wait for the rest? And why should we have to suffer empty lots in the Gore of all places waiting for the “inevitable” redevelopment?

Also, this particular issue is not just one of more empty lots. The buildings in question are of significant heritage value. Even if we were experiencing a bona fide redevelopment boom in the downtown core that was going to rationalize the use of all of the vast tracts of underutilized land, it would still not be sensible to allow the razing of buildings at the very heart of the city that predate the existence of our country.
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  #354  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 12:38 PM
Beedok Beedok is offline
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Originally Posted by coalminecanary View Post
Something like jackson square? or effort trust? or city centre?
City centre is not of all the good quality. Jackson square is a sort of thing that can't be translated into that location because of the scale. Effort Trust is a more accurate assesment of scale, but that's a style people don't build in any more so it wouldn't look like that. We'd probably be talking about something with a lot more glass and a somewhat better street interaction. Of course it could also be done in a quasi-historic style like Ottawa loves to do if people wanted to maintain that feel to the area. I'd prefer something modern with metal and glass and stone myself though, as long as the architecture is decent.
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  #355  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 2:12 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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To further clarify, the former HMP site closed in 2006 when the car dealership moved to Upper James. The century-old building sat empty until it was demolished in 2007, after which it was used as a parking lot until the end of 2009. Construction of the hotel began the summer of 2012, and the hotel opened for business last month.

The former HMP site's redevelopment took eight years, with the former building empty for a year before it was demolished. Redevelopment is a slower process than we would prefer, but slow process cannot be interpreted as no process. If you look back on this forum, you will notice that back in 2007 the sentiment for the building's demolition and opinion on the developer responsible for it was not unlike that for the site that WB has at King and James today. We will have to revisit this site in the next 8-10 years to see if history repeats itself, although it looks like progress on this site will be protracted by an OMB hearing.
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  #356  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by masterwhite View Post
He should of knocked em down while he had the chance. Now those buildings are just vacant and not doing anything for our city
I don't even know how to respond to this.

You actually think a gravel lot in the heart of the city is preferable to irreplaceable historic buildings?

In any other city, these buildings would be treasured and the idea of knocking them down would never come up.

They just need some care. The idea that they would be too expensive to fix is utter hogwash. Buildings in far worse condition have been saved. Developments in other cities go to extreme lengths to preserve historic buildings.

Finally, don't try to give me any crap about someone would buy them if they were actually that valuable. These buildings have tremendous value and any investment in fixing them up is well worth it. People have tried to buy them, but they are not for sale, unfortunately.
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  #357  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 7:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
WB had already assembled the land they require for their redevelopment plans at King and James. It is only a matter of time before the redevelopment starts. It is easy to make a logical leap that the lack of a publicly presented plan means there is a lack of a plan, but that doesn’t mean that is the correct conclusion.

With regards to the wringing of hands over the excessive amount of empty lots in downtown Hamilton, I would suggest the anxiety is misplaced. The city is on the cusp of a redevelopment explosion. Developers that have been hedging their bets on when to redevelop now see that the stars have aligned for Hamilton. We can see that in the redevelopment of the lands Vranich assembled at Bay between Main and King. A couple years ago, he was painted as the evil pariah turning the downtown into parking lots. In the past year, those parking lots have been transformed into redevelopment worth over $100m.

If you look back to Toronto in the 1980's, it's downtown was pockmarked by many open land not unlike Hamilton is today. At the time, many people in Toronto were as worried about the health of their inner city in the same way many of us worry about Hamilton today. The key is to remember that the empty lots are not to be viewed as a blight; they are the sign of an impending renaissance, kind of like our city is dotted with cocoons nearing the stage of chrysalis. The city is finally shaking the economic pains it has endured since the 90's. I am confident that, in ten years's time, we will see what has started at Bay and Main spread across all the lands that have been assembled by developers like Yale and WB.
There may very well be a plan that the public doesn't know about. And it may only be a matter of time before the developer acts. But it's easy to make a logical leap about how much time will be involved.

I too have confidence we are seeing some real change downtown. But it's still in its infancy and there's a long way to go, and markets can change quite fast. So when someone proposes to knock down buildings that have been productive land uses without communicating a clear idea that anything will replace them right away, never mind what it will be, I think there's reason to be anxious.

All these lots do represent opportunity. But some of them have sat vacant for decades. Over that time, the lack of productive land uses on those lots has contributed to the decline of the downtown - fewer attractors and businesses meant fewer reasons for people to visit, fewer economic interactions, fewer people working there, fewer residential units (many of which were above businesses in buildings that were demolished), and fewer reasons for anyone to care... meanwhile the social problems became magnified because of the decline of everything else, exacerbating the poor image of the area. There were other causes of the core's decline, but I think the empty lots were a prime reason so I have a hard time looking at them as anything but a blight.
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  #358  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 5:33 PM
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Boarded up at last!

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  #359  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 5:58 PM
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Anyone have a realistic estimate of what those buildings would be worth today?
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  #360  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2014, 12:07 AM
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^Market value? Intrinsic value? No idea. I certainly can't imagine him wanting to sell at this point, anyway.
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