The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[Fischbob]

Rental market data for October 2020 has been published on the CMHC's Housing Market Information Portal. A few highlights for SJ:

Saint John (CMA)
Vacancy Rate: 3.1% (down from 3.3% in 2019)
Average Rent: $790 (up 3.1% from $766 in 2019)

Saint John (City)
Vacancy Rate: 2.9% (down from 3.3% in 2019)
Average Rent: $788 (up 2.4% from $769 in 2019)

Uptown Area
Vacancy Rate: 2.3% (down from 2.9% in 2019)
Average Rent: $816 (up 7.4% from $760 in 2019)

Note - CMHC defines the Uptown area as the following:

[NewIreland]

As a resident of Manitoba and frequent visitor to Saint John (family) I really can't wrap my head around why people choose Moncton over Saint John. I hope nobody from Moncton takes offense, but it really is puzzling. I've been to all three and Saint John is definitely the only one I would call a city. The urbanism in Saint John simply can't be found in the other two. Saint John has amazing bones and is incredibly charming and vibrant. Moncton strikes me as a large suburb, and a very poorly laid out one at that. It definitely does not resemble a city. In terms of recreation Saint John has so much more to offer; Rockwood Park, the Irving Nature Park, numerous world class facilities (that new field house is incredible). Moncton resembles a swamp with an incredibly unsightly river running through it. Also, I consider the Saint John River Valley one of the most beautiful and underrated parts of Canada... period. If you don't like Saint John proper, Rothesay, Quispamsis, Hampton, Grand Bay and Westfield are infinitely better than anything in or around Moncton or Fredericton. Is Saint John dangerous? No... absolutely not. Industrial?.... yes, but I have family who work at the refinery, the pulp mill and the brewery and they are the most advanced facities around (incredibly clean and well-run)... I could go on. Why are people choosing Moncton?

[MonctonRad]

You're treading in dangerous territory here.

There used to be a lot of internecine warfare between the three NB cities on SSP about 8-10 years ago with a lot of jockeying around and inflammatory posts, but for the most part, the NB SSP community has been playing nice for some time and celebrating success in each of our cities, no matter where they live.

I take no issue with your preferred city in NB, but you should be careful about putting down other cities when you state your preference. I also take no issue with the "good bones" of SJ, and the pleasant nature of the physiography of the city.

There can be other reasons why one city can become ascendant over another however. Bilingualism is an important one here in NB. Another is location, and a third can be economic vitality. Does this make Moncton better than Saint John - no, most definitely not, but it can explain why Moncton is growing more rapidly than Saint John, and I don't expect this difference in the trajectory between the two cities to change.

All three cities have different strengths, and should play to their strengths in order to ensure future vitality and growth. Live and let live I say!

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You're treading in dangerous territory here.

There used to be a lot of internecine warfare between the three NB cities on SSP about 8-10 years ago with a lot of jockeying around and inflammatory posts, but for the most part, the NB SSP community has been playing nice for some time and celebrating success in each of our cities, no matter where they live.

I take no issue with your preferred city in NB, but you should be careful about putting down other cities when you state your preference. I also take no issue with the "good bones" of SJ, and the pleasant nature of the physiography of the city.

There can be other reasons why one city can become ascendant over another however. Bilingualism is an important one here in NB. Another is location, and a third can be economic vitality. Does this make Moncton better than Saint John - no, most definitely not, but it can explain why Moncton is growing more rapidly than Saint John, and I don't expect this difference in the trajectory between the two cities to change.

All three cities have different strengths, and should play to their strengths in order to ensure future vitality and growth. Live and let live I say!

Thank you for your response.

The demographic stats suggest that less than 2% of Moncton is bilingual and close to 70% speak English as their first language. Am I missing something here?

I cannot speak to economic vitality but I do know that NB's largest companies are headquartered in Saint John.

Centrality is great if you have to travel for certain services. Winnipeg is a good example here in Manitoba. People travel from Kenora, Brandon and all places in between to go shopping at Costco, Ikea, take in a hockey game, use the airport etc. But what does Moncton have that Saint John and Fredericton doesn't apart from a Casino?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by NewIreland

Thank you for your response.

The demographic stats suggest that less than 2% of Moncton is bilingual and close to 70% speak English as their first language. Am I missing something here?

Moncton is 1/3rd Acadian, virtually all of whom are fluently bilingual. Overall, at least 40% of the population is bilingual (including bilingual anglophones). I don't know where you got your 2% number. That's way off.

Moncton is the "Capitale de l'Acadie" and it is very easy for francophones to get any service they want here in their own language. They even have their own comprehensive university and tertiary care hospital in the city. SJ is not known for being very welcoming to the Acadian community.

Moncton is central not just to NB, but to the entire Maritime region. It therefore is a logistical hub. The TCH and the CNR run through the city. The airport is also the largest one in the province. Moncton is also well placed with regards to nearby attractions like Shediac, Parlee Beach, the Irving Eco-Park at the Bouctouche Dunes, the Sackville Water Park, Hopewell Rocks, Cape Enrage and Fundy Park.

Moncton isn't just a swamp. I hope I have made myself clear. I don't intend to get into a pissing match here.

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Moncton is 1/3rd Acadian, virtually all of whom are fluently bilingual. Overall, at least 40% of the population is bilingual (including bilingual anglophones). I don't know where you got your 2% number. That's way off.

Moncton is the "Capitale de l'Acadie" and it is very easy for francophones to get any service they want here in their own language. They even have their own comprehensive university and tertiary care hospital in the city. SJ is not known for being very welcoming to the Acadian community.

I'd have to look it up, but I believe they had the CMA at 70% Anglo 30% Franco... with 1.7% fluently bilingual. I have no doubt that a much larger percentage has a strong knowledge of both.

[cdnguys]

Saint John boomed and “grew up” during a time of denser neighborhoods and thoughtful architecture - that’s why we are left with a “big city” on a small scale. Some streetscapes resemble Boston as after the great fire it was Boston architects designed the new structures. Even though Saint John’s growth slowed in the late 20th century, it actually did pretty well considering it shared similar industrial characteristics of “rust belt” cities that retracted upwards of 70%. Saint John is undergoing a renaissance and the gentrification is accelerating. It has an industrial urban chic feel and the old streetscapes and historic feel forms a connection with visitors and residents - people kinda feel grounded and connected to this place. Research backs this up that historic buildings can do that. The rolling hills give it a unique look and feel. I think that’s why more than 1/2 of moved to NB (via uhaul) come to Saint John. COVID provided a unique opportunity for Saint John because due to the rapid change in the move to working from home permanently, many people are choosing to move here to work and live which overcomes the weak employment growth through traditional employers. With new projects on the horizon, the city’s skyline is about to change drastically - certainly not at the level of Halifax, but it’s creating its own unique signature skyline. We have people also moving here from USA who find a similar feel to that of New England cities. Just drive up and down uptown and streets and you’ll count a lot of Ontario and BC plates. The city is really underrated - for theatre, restaurants and bars - I think SJ is very competitive with Halifax - so surprising we only have 2 hotels uptown. The theatre scene may actually be the best in the maritimes and getting better with SJTC expansion into their second building. And many don’t realize the beautiful boating waterways on the bays and rivers north and west of Saint John with 5 boating or yachting clubs - they just picture uptown and industrial. I think people understand Saint John when it’s thick pea soup fog and the Trinity church bell rings as you shuffle along historical buildings - it’s like Jack Ripper’s London

Moncton has a different feel. It feels busier and more entrepreneurial; has a “we can do anything” attitude and has “momentum”. It has very beautiful leafy neighborhoods and a nice climate in the summer. The employment picture is a lot more rosier due to a diverse and growing economy. There are more shopping options. Even though the river looks chocolate brown, they have the beautiful Northumberland shore including Shediac. The diversity is really strong with French expats from northern NB and large immigration numbers. It’s location is perfect and will lend for huge economic growth. The downtown has a sea of pavement which is a blank canvass for building a large neighborhood - they have an opportunity to build some fantastic modern buildings and create its own unique downtown feel in the coming years. I’m hoping for some 20-25 story buildings, but with so much land afraid they may not happen. Fingers crossed because I think there is potential to really stand out. It’s a quick trip to PEI and Halifax.

Fredericton is just plain beautiful - the trees are incredible and the city’s layout is nice with it’s “big hill”. It booms from government, education, research and IT. I’m actually impressed by their downtown - it spans several blocks east-west and north-south. Has a young hip feel and the walking trail bridge across the river is lovely. The climate is nice in summer. Neighborhoods are beautiful. They have beautiful old homes much like Saint John’s Douglas Ave, Mount Pleasant Ave areas. They have some interesting designed buildings happening.

Point is they have all their own unique qualities and people would just pick whichever one floats their boat. And the cities are all very close by so you can live in one and enjoy the other within 1 to 1.75 hours

[SevenSquared]

Originally Posted by NewIreland

Why are people choosing Moncton?

No offense, but your initial post is reminiscent of that high school kid who chooses a university not on its academic program but where he can get the best selfies for his Instagram page. The sedimentation of one body of water compared to another is hardly the kind of metric most people use to decide where to move.

Why are people choosing Moncton? Many reasons, but considering your apparent fixation on the aesthetic, perhaps consider the fact that a nice tourist destination doesn't necessarily equal an ideal relocation destination.

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by SevenSquared

No offense, but your initial post is reminiscent of that high school kid who chooses a university not on its academic program but where he can get the best selfies for his Instagram page. The sedimentation of one body of water compared to another is hardly the kind of metric most people use to decide where to move.

Why are people choosing Moncton? Many reasons, but considering your apparent fixation on the aesthetic, perhaps consider the fact that a nice tourist destination doesn't necessarily equal an ideal relocation destination.

My rationale for creating the post is not that simplistic, but I understand why you came up with that analogy. How could I possible take offense to an insult given based on assumptions? Anyway, recent migration AND immigration trends suggest that people are choosing NB because of affordability. A good percentage of these newcomers have maintained their old jobs and are simply moving here because of the aforementioned affordability. Others have sold their more expensive property elsewhere, moved to NB and are living on savings until they find something. Some have gambled and others have been more strategic and secured a job beforehand. I have had a good number of friends contact me over the past year asking me about where they should move. Where were they getting their info? Well, mostly Reddit, real state agents, YouTube and other not-so-reliable sources. A couple I know from Niagara hired a real estate agent from the Fredericton area who called Saint John "the John" and said "don't even bother". So, what are the metrics? It was an honest question. Enjoy your evening. May the sedimentation in yer ale not be given the chance to settle dear lad.

[Fischbob]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Saint John boomed and “grew up” during a time of denser neighborhoods and thoughtful architecture - that’s why we are left with a “big city” on a small scale. Some streetscapes resemble Boston as after the great fire it was Boston architects designed the new structures. Even though Saint John’s growth slowed in the late 20th century, it actually did pretty well considering it shared similar industrial characteristics of “rust belt” cities that retracted upwards of 70%. Saint John is undergoing a renaissance and the gentrification is accelerating. It has an industrial urban chic feel and the old streetscapes and historic feel forms a connection with visitors and residents - people kinda feel grounded and connected to this place. Research backs this up that historic buildings can do that. The rolling hills give it a unique look and feel. I think that’s why more than 1/2 of moved to NB (via uhaul) come to Saint John. COVID provided a unique opportunity for Saint John because due to the rapid change in the move to working from home permanently, many people are choosing to move here to work and live which overcomes the weak employment growth through traditional employers. With new projects on the horizon, the city’s skyline is about to change drastically - certainly not at the level of Halifax, but it’s creating its own unique signature skyline. We have people also moving here from USA who find a similar feel to that of New England cities. Just drive up and down uptown and streets and you’ll count a lot of Ontario and BC plates. The city is really underrated - for theatre, restaurants and bars - I think SJ is very competitive with Halifax - so surprising we only have 2 hotels uptown. The theatre scene may actually be the best in the maritimes and getting better with SJTC expansion into their second building. And many don’t realize the beautiful boating waterways on the bays and rivers north and west of Saint John with 5 boating or yachting clubs - they just picture uptown and industrial. I think people understand Saint John when it’s thick pea soup fog and the Trinity church bell rings as you shuffle along historical buildings - it’s like Jack Ripper’s London

Moncton has a different feel. It feels busier and more entrepreneurial; has a “we can do anything” attitude and has “momentum”. It has very beautiful leafy neighborhoods and a nice climate in the summer. The employment picture is a lot more rosier due to a diverse and growing economy. There are more shopping options. Even though the river looks chocolate brown, they have the beautiful Northumberland shore including Shediac. The diversity is really strong with French expats from northern NB and large immigration numbers. It’s location is perfect and will lend for huge economic growth. The downtown has a sea of pavement which is a blank canvass for building a large neighborhood - they have an opportunity to build some fantastic modern buildings and create its own unique downtown feel in the coming years. I’m hoping for some 20-25 story buildings, but with so much land afraid they may not happen. Fingers crossed because I think there is potential to really stand out. It’s a quick trip to PEI and Halifax.

Fredericton is just plain beautiful - the trees are incredible and the city’s layout is nice with it’s “big hill”. It booms from government, education, research and IT. I’m actually impressed by their downtown - it spans several blocks east-west and north-south. Has a young hip feel and the walking trail bridge across the river is lovely. The climate is nice in summer. Neighborhoods are beautiful. They have beautiful old homes much like Saint John’s Douglas Ave, Mount Pleasant Ave areas. They have some interesting designed buildings happening.

Point is they have all their own unique qualities and people would just pick whichever one floats their boat. And the cities are all very close by so you can live in one and enjoy the other within 1 to 1.75 hours

Great post. I may have my own biases, and there's always going to be some (hopefully healthy) rivalry here, but I'm of the mind that all 3 New Brunswick CMAs have a lot of positive things to offer and we should be celebrating the successes and momentum each are experiencing, as well as supporting each other where we can. A great example of this is the recent op-ed from the 3 Chambers of Commerce in defense of the 3 local airports - even Moncton, whose airport is least threatened by recent service cuts and would be the likely candidate for a single commercial airport in NB, voiced their support for the other two cities' airports.

I think having 3 CMAs of comparable stature in a province as small as ours is a net positive for us, giving us a level of variety and choice that would be less pronounced if there was just one provincial metropolis. All 3 are currently capable of supporting a healthy suite of urban amenities that will only improve as the cities grow and evolve. I'll always be a Saint John booster, but I'm happy to cheer for Moncton and Fredericton too

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Saint John boomed and “grew up” during a time of denser neighborhoods and thoughtful architecture - that’s why we are left with a “big city” on a small scale. Some streetscapes resemble Boston as after the great fire it was Boston architects designed the new structures. Even though Saint John’s growth slowed in the late 20th century, it actually did pretty well considering it shared similar industrial characteristics of “rust belt” cities that retracted upwards of 70%. Saint John is undergoing a renaissance and the gentrification is accelerating. It has an industrial urban chic feel and the old streetscapes and historic feel forms a connection with visitors and residents - people kinda feel grounded and connected to this place. Research backs this up that historic buildings can do that. The rolling hills give it a unique look and feel. I think that’s why more than 1/2 of moved to NB (via uhaul) come to Saint John. COVID provided a unique opportunity for Saint John because due to the rapid change in the move to working from home permanently, many people are choosing to move here to work and live which overcomes the weak employment growth through traditional employers. With new projects on the horizon, the city’s skyline is about to change drastically - certainly not at the level of Halifax, but it’s creating its own unique signature skyline. We have people also moving here from USA who find a similar feel to that of New England cities. Just drive up and down uptown and streets and you’ll count a lot of Ontario and BC plates. The city is really underrated - for theatre, restaurants and bars - I think SJ is very competitive with Halifax - so surprising we only have 2 hotels uptown. The theatre scene may actually be the best in the maritimes and getting better with SJTC expansion into their second building. And many don’t realize the beautiful boating waterways on the bays and rivers north and west of Saint John with 5 boating or yachting clubs - they just picture uptown and industrial. I think people understand Saint John when it’s thick pea soup fog and the Trinity church bell rings as you shuffle along historical buildings - it’s like Jack Ripper’s London

Moncton has a different feel. It feels busier and more entrepreneurial; has a “we can do anything” attitude and has “momentum”. It has very beautiful leafy neighborhoods and a nice climate in the summer. The employment picture is a lot more rosier due to a diverse and growing economy. There are more shopping options. Even though the river looks chocolate brown, they have the beautiful Northumberland shore including Shediac. The diversity is really strong with French expats from northern NB and large immigration numbers. It’s location is perfect and will lend for huge economic growth. The downtown has a sea of pavement which is a blank canvass for building a large neighborhood - they have an opportunity to build some fantastic modern buildings and create its own unique downtown feel in the coming years. I’m hoping for some 20-25 story buildings, but with so much land afraid they may not happen. Fingers crossed because I think there is potential to really stand out. It’s a quick trip to PEI and Halifax.

Fredericton is just plain beautiful - the trees are incredible and the city’s layout is nice with it’s “big hill”. It booms from government, education, research and IT. I’m actually impressed by their downtown - it spans several blocks east-west and north-south. Has a young hip feel and the walking trail bridge across the river is lovely. The climate is nice in summer. Neighborhoods are beautiful. They have beautiful old homes much like Saint John’s Douglas Ave, Mount Pleasant Ave areas. They have some interesting designed buildings happening.

Point is they have all their own unique qualities and people would just pick whichever one floats their boat. And the cities are all very close by so you can live in one and enjoy the other within 1 to 1.75 hours

Well done!

[Taeolas]

Having 3 "main" cities in the province has been a bit of a detriment for a long time, but I'm now thinking we've grown up enough that it is becoming a positive for the province.

The 3 cities are big enough and just far enough away from the others, that they tend to have their own identities now, and are attracting attention nationally.

It also means that we often get commercial attention in triplicate. We're a province with 800k people, and we have 3 major Costcos. Nova Scotia almost has a million people, and it has 2 Costcos, both in the Halifax area. By having 3 markets, we practically make it worthwhile for commercial businesses to set up their supply network just for us alone. And Moncton is central enough that using that as a distribution centre for the Maritimes is often worthwhile, leading to more growth there.

Even historically, I've mentioned before, the tri-cities has (IMO) helped balance the province. Sure the North is hurting, but because we have 3 centres, we've spread our focus and our development (for better or for worse) which helps dissipate some of the Us vs Them mentality that can happen elsewhere. (Look at Monocity provinces, like Nova Scotia or Manitoba, where the focus is often seen on Halifax or Winnipeg to the detriment of the rest of the province). Sydney should be a good counterweight to Halifax, but it was hobbled by the Mining and Steel collapse at the end of the 20th, and it's only now starting to recover and reclaim its position as the Halifax offset. It'll probably be decades before it's in much position to make use of that.

Anyways, back to NB, the tricities are all doing incredibly well (COVID aside), which is really surprising; it's rare we get all 3 cities firing at once; usually one is in a bind while the others are booming. SJ's certainly got some troubles coming in the future and will need more help (it needed help preCOVID), but it should really start taking off through the rest of the 20's.

And airport talk is just random noise. Pre-COVID all 3 airports were doing great. YFC's expansion alone was fully funded and VERY needed at the time. Once we reopen again, the commercial fligths will return and we'll be back to those high PAX numbers again surprisingly quick I'm sure.

[SevenSquared]

Originally Posted by NewIreland

It was an honest question.

[homebody]

I really think SevenSquared and MonctonRad's feelings got hurt. Don't worry NewIreland it always happens when someone says something the least bit negative about Moncton. Some of their argument don't even make sense for example: MonctonRad claimed that Moncton was central for all of New Brunswick. Show me on a map how this is reality Oh yes and the Bouctouche Dunes and Hopewell Rocks are "well placed" for God sake they are both roughly 40 minutes outside of Moncton. I guess the fine people of Saint John should start considering Poley Mountain as a civic attraction or even the caves out in St Martins lol. MonctonRad also forgot to mention one other well placed attraction. The brown water coloured tidal bore that runs up though the downtown swamp twice a day!

[MonctonRad]

Note that i did not say anything negative about Saint John in my posts above. Why do Saint Johners feel the need to insult Moncton?

One more thing about the comparison of Moncton to a "swamp". Back when Washington was chosen to be the new US capital to replace Philadelphia, detractors derided the choice by stating that this backwater location on the Potomac was a mosquito infested and malaria ridden swamp. I guess it just depends on what you do with the swamp...........

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by SevenSquared

LOL. Since you do have a sense of humour I'll share our reasons for choosing Moncton when we moved back to the maritimes once we became freelancers.

- Quality & affordability of real estate in/near downtown core
- Consistently strong economy
- Half-decent cycling infrastructure, and a clear willingness to improve it
- Central location for wide variety of same-day road trips
- Warm (by Canadian standards) sandy beaches
- Interesting & distinct downtown vibe
- Diverse food scene
- Relative safety for francophones/minorities
- Frequency of flights (YQM for domestic/Mexico & YHZ for Europe/USA)

Some of these also apply to SJ and Fredericton, some don't, as a result our short-list quickly came down to Moncton vs Charlottetown vs Halifax. Never regretted our choice.

Moncton has sandy beaches? I kid. But SJ has over 30 salt water and freshwater beaches within city limits.

If you moved to Moncton partially because of it's downtown "vibe"... bless your heart. Bless it.

What area/region would be considered unsafe for Francophones/minorities? Truly puzzling comment.

This might seem surprising, but SJ has the most kilometers of cycling infrastructure among the three major cities by far. Rockwood Park alone has a huge network.

Anyway, you chose Moncton and it seems like you're enjoying it. That's all that matters I guess.

[ColSJ]

For as long as I've been a member of SSP everyone has positively contributed to the threads in all three of New Brunswick's bigger cities. I'm very pro- Saint John however I'm always happy to celebrate achievements made in both Moncton and Fredericton. It's perfectly acceptable to raise the topic of what might make a region more attractive as opposed to another but if we're gonna use it as an opportunity to attack one another that's simply not productive and in my opinion unwelcomed on here.

Thanks!

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Note that i did not say anything negative about Saint John in my posts above. Why do Saint Johners feel the need to insult Moncton?

One more thing about the comparison of Moncton to a "swamp". Back when Washington was chosen to be the new US capital to replace Philadelphia, detractors derided the choice by stating that this backwater location on the Potomac was a mosquito infested and malaria ridden swamp. I guess it just depends on what you do with the swamp...........

I had to laugh at your DC comment. What a terrible example. It is the 9th most dangerous city in the US, one of the most racially segregated and least family friendly with a terrible climate. It has extraordinarily horrible air quality despite its lack of industry. It does share something in common with Moncton though. It would still be a swamp if it weren't for government coddling. Sorry, couldn't resist.

[homebody]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Note that i did not say anything negative about Saint John in my posts above. Why do Saint Johners feel the need to insult Moncton?

One more thing about the comparison of Moncton to a "swamp". Back when Washington was chosen to be the new US capital to replace Philadelphia, detractors derided the choice by stating that this backwater location on the Potomac was a mosquito infested and malaria ridden swamp. I guess it just depends on what you do with the swamp...........

I quote:"SJ is not known for being very welcoming to the Acadian community". Would that not constitute negativity?

[NewIreland]

Anyway, no need for this to go off the rails. Back to development.