Winnipeg Retail

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by vjose32

Add Claires and Sunglass Hut to the former Zellers wing of the mall.

Sunglass Hut has a brand new location at centre court AND a kiosk... are you sure they're moving?

[wags_in_the_peg]

Target @ Polo Park must be opening any day, the signage is all lit up and the carts are in the parking lot. Not jumping up and doing with excitement but I must admit, it's pretty nive looking compared to most department stores. the 1st level parking with store above, nice brick work, etc all make it unique.

[trebor204]

It looks like Polo Park expansion will open on Wed Oct 1st
Disney says its opening on Oct 1st (it could be start date for the new employees)

http://www.polopark.ca/en/developmen...rtunities.aspx

[CoryB]

Target has three store openings happening this "fall", of which Polo Park is one. I recall the plan was for all three to launch on the same date with "October" being the target for one of the other stores.

[beatlesque]

I've been living in WPG this summer, and think the city is looking as good as I can ever remember (not having lived here regularly for a long time); despite the obvious challenges and wtf decisions, there has been a huge amount of movement in the right direction, from big things like the Jets and the museum to things like street-level landscaping, etc.

Recently, however, I wanted to buy something specific and found out that its only availability in WPG was at a health-type store (which turned out to be a very good store in itself) out past Polo Park on the way to the airport. I thought it was too bad that this store wasn't downtown (like so many others aren't as well obviously), but figured I would pass by the downtown Bay (which I've always tried to shop at if possible) to get another thing first before going out there.

I did end up buying something at the Bay - an umbrella - but the other thing I was looking for - an electric razor - is, I was told, 'no longer available' at the downtown location. I would have to go to Polo Park for that, the woman said.

Aside from the fact that I don't know why they couldn't make room for electric razors in this huge department store, this immediately brought to my mind another occasion when I wanted to buy something at this store, which was not sold - only to end up buying it later at the Bay in Montreal.

I wonder in that case if, in the minds of Bay executives, that means there is no demand at the WPG Bay for this item while there is in Montreal. So we will carry it in Montreal but not WPG, people will buy it in Montreal and that means there is demand, etc. Which came first…

WPG has pushed for years and years for downtown re-development, and understandably cheers the slightest advance downtown, while at the same time one see can see this ongoing huge amount of retail development sprawl pushing outward. I understand it for IKEA and Rona and so on of course. But I walked beside Polo Park and saw the Chapters-Indigo in some concrete field and thought, I didn't even know that business still existed here. McNally Robinson is a great bookstore, but they pulled out of downtown - from what I understand the daughter didn't set up her own shop in an outer borough of NYC.

I realize it's a mix of the sprawl, a too-large downtown (tons of people do go to the Forks) and the choices of consumers (obviously), and the perception many people seem to have about the centre of WPG. So I don't know what all the answer is. But I know it's not as simple as saying no one's interested in going downtown to shop here.

At the same time, I bought a laptop at Polo Park Apple in 2010 and I think people from all areas would have gone to an Apple store downtown because it's unique. They could have been so much more urban here in their store location, as they were in Montreal on Ste. Catherine I believe. But I know they would have seen that Polo Park is the safest place and it's another self-perpetuating cycle. I applaud MEC, for example, for showing vision and putting up a great store where they did.

Again, I do also recognize all the other initiatives and businesses pushing forward in the city centre - just also think of all the amazing stores you can see elsewhere that could fill in all those empty spaces. So that is a thought on WPG retail based on some experiences.

[Riverman]

On the electric razor issue, that is a small, expensive item that is easily pocketed and pawned. This is most likely why it is not available downtown.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by beatlesque

I've been living in WPG this summer, and think the city is looking as good as I can ever remember (not having lived here regularly for a long time); despite the obvious challenges and wtf decisions, there has been a huge amount of movement in the right direction, from big things like the Jets and the museum to things like street-level landscaping, etc.

Recently, however, I wanted to buy something specific and found out that its only availability in WPG was at a health-type store (which turned out to be a very good store in itself) out past Polo Park on the way to the airport. I thought it was too bad that this store wasn't downtown (like so many others aren't as well obviously), but figured I would pass by the downtown Bay (which I've always tried to shop at if possible) to get another thing first before going out there.

I did end up buying something at the Bay - an umbrella - but the other thing I was looking for - an electric razor - is, I was told, 'no longer available' at the downtown location. I would have to go to Polo Park for that, the woman said.

Aside from the fact that I don't know why they couldn't make room for electric razors in this huge department store, this immediately brought to my mind another occasion when I wanted to buy something at this store, which was not sold - only to end up buying it later at the Bay in Montreal.

I wonder in that case if, in the minds of Bay executives, that means there is no demand at the WPG Bay for this item while there is in Montreal. So we will carry it in Montreal but not WPG, people will buy it in Montreal and that means there is demand, etc. Which came first…

WPG has pushed for years and years for downtown re-development, and understandably cheers the slightest advance downtown, while at the same time one see can see this ongoing huge amount of retail development sprawl pushing outward. I understand it for IKEA and Rona and so on of course. But I walked beside Polo Park and saw the Chapters-Indigo in some concrete field and thought, I didn't even know that business still existed here. McNally Robinson is a great bookstore, but they pulled out of downtown - from what I understand the daughter didn't set up her own shop in an outer borough of NYC.

I realize it's a mix of the sprawl, a too-large downtown (tons of people do go to the Forks) and the choices of consumers (obviously), and the perception many people seem to have about the centre of WPG. So I don't know what all the answer is. But I know it's not as simple as saying no one's interested in going downtown to shop here.

At the same time, I bought a laptop at Polo Park Apple in 2010 and I think people from all areas would have gone to an Apple store downtown because it's unique. They could have been so much more urban here in their store location, as they were in Montreal on Ste. Catherine I believe. But I know they would have seen that Polo Park is the safest place and it's another self-perpetuating cycle. I applaud MEC, for example, for showing vision and putting up a great store where they did.

Again, I do also recognize all the other initiatives and businesses pushing forward in the city centre - just also think of all the amazing stores you can see elsewhere that could fill in all those empty spaces. So that is a thought on WPG retail based on some experiences.

There used to be an extensive electronics section at the Bay downtown which sold amongst other thigns electric razors. So I think its pretty clear that they stopped selling it cause people stopped shopping there. The downtown Bay is really a shell of its former self. Its dying a slow death.

Downtown Montreal and downtown Winnipeg are really on polar opposite ends in terms of retail. Downtown Montreal is THE place go to shop. I love going there. Street front access to retailers like Apple, American Eagle, Urban ouitfitters etc etc. But Apple wasn't a trailblazer and opened up a store in a dead retail landscape in downtown Montreal. It was already where people went to shop.The difference is there are far more people living in downtown Montreal then there are in Winnipeg. Winnipeg is far too sparsely populated.

Montreals population density is 898.1 people per square kilometer. Winnipeg has 137.7 people per square kilometer. The national average for CMAs is 250. *2011 Canada census

Winnipeg has tried the quick fix (see Portage Place) for downtown retail. It doesn't work.

[esquire]

Looking back at things, I'd say that the bottom really fell out of downtown retail when Eaton's announced it was closing around 1998 or so. Even as recently as the late 90s, downtown was still hanging in there as a viable alternative to the major suburban malls. The downtown Bay was the main location with a full product range, and the downtown Eaton's was equally comprehensive. Once Eaton's bit the dust, it was really the beginning of the end... the critical mass was lost. Holt Renfrew turned into an outlet store before disappearing, most of the mainstream chain stores at Portage Place and Cityplace left, the bookstores closed down and The Bay started its death march which continues more or less unabated.

I think the ship has sailed on mainstream downtown retail, at least for this generation. Nothing can fix it, not an Apple store or whatever other trendy shop one could care to name. The only hope of bringing downtown retail back is to encourage more development and bring so many people downtown to live and work that retailers will have no choice but to set up shop. But even in a best case scenario which assumes that Skycity and a bunch of others like it get built over the next few years, we'd still be over a decade away (probably more like two or three decades) from seeing a retail resurgence downtown.

[Cyro]

^^^^(4 up) Loss Prevention is one of the issues when it comes to high end retail items/stores being located in the downtown core and a good point. The obvious is demographics, those willing to buy high end items and stores willing to take the risk in locating from stable and relatively proven shopping environments as you've mentioned.

If Winnipeg wants to see retail/high end retail, return to the core, the first problem of going downtown and the perception of doing it versus the safe and easy suburban locations must change.

How??? Difficult to do.Top 2 solutions, as always. Safe downtown shopping environment and the perception it is safe. Increasing the density offull time residents willing to spend thier income on downtown shopping daily. Next..See Safety/Comfort again of those willing to walk the streets of downtown. See previous again. Sorry, but Social issues that are prevelent in the core are a major factor that need much work for things to prosper.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by Cyro

^^^^(4 up) Loss Prevention is one of the issues when it comes to high end retail items/stores being located in the downtown core and a good point. The obvious is demographics, those willing to buy high end items and stores willing to take the risk in locating from stable and relatively proven shopping environments as you've mentioned.

If Winnipeg wants to see retail/high end retail, return to the core, the first problem of going downtown and the perception of doing it versus the safe and easy suburban locations must change.

How??? Difficult to do.Top 2 solutions, as always. Safe downtown shopping environment and the perception it is safe. Increasing the density offull time residents willing to spend thier income on downtown shopping daily. Next..See Safety/Comfort again of those willing to walk the streets of downtown. See previous again. Sorry, but Social issues that are prevelent in the core are a major factor that need much work for things to prosper.

I think that denisty will kind of take care of some of the safety issues. The more people who live and walk around downtown, the less by proportion the vagrant population will be. Coupled with the increased demand for properties will push out the seedier establishements.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Cyro

^^^^(4 up) Loss Prevention is one of the issues when it comes to high end retail items/stores being located in the downtown core and a good point. The obvious is demographics, those willing to buy high end items and stores willing to take the risk in locating from stable and relatively proven shopping environments as you've mentioned.

Probably not quite enough of the high-end item buyers to justify the shrinkage. I'm sure plenty gets lifted from the stores at Polo Park, but the sales figures are high enough to make up for it.

Losing 4 shavers a month is perhaps not a huge problem when you're selling 50 of them in the same timeframe. But when you only sell 4 a month to begin with... well, you just don't bother stocking the item.

I shop at The Bay a lot, and it's not unusual to see rough, shady looking guys walking around in there who probably don't have platinum credit cards in their wallets. The Bay must have some decent loss prevention, but it's not as though they actively maintain a presence with security guards by the doors or other measures that you often see in big-city department stores.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by cheswick

I think that denisty will kind of take care of some of the safety issues. The more people who live and walk around downtown, the less by proportion the vagrant population will be. Coupled with the increased demand for properties will push out the seedier establishements.

Very reasonable assesment. Your points are very valid. I hope that the powers that be in conjuction with developers can get us to this point.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by esquire

Probably not quite enough of the high-end item buyers to justify the shrinkage. I'm sure plenty gets lifted from the stores at Polo Park, but the sales figures are high enough to make up for it.

Losing 4 shavers a month is perhaps not a huge problem when you're selling 50 of them in the same timeframe. But when you only sell 4 a month to begin with... well, you just don't bother stocking the item.

I shop at The Bay a lot, and it's not unusual to see rough, shady looking guys walking around in there who probably don't have platinum credit cards in their wallets. The Bay must have some decent loss prevention, but it's not as though they actively maintain a presence with security guards by the doors or other measures that you often see in big-city department stores.

The Bay, as in your example, may have a small(obvious) security presence. But with Plain clothed loss prevention officers, 3-4. Aprx: 1-3 ratio. A Safeway may run with a 1-1 ratio.

Being involved in different levels of enforcement activities, I find the visible level of deterrent options much more effective in how the general public will perceive thier safety.

So a visible, ongoing presence downtown imo, will eventually translate into a perception/ and actual feeling of safety for the area and those that use it, ex: for shopping. It's not as easy as I am trying to make it sound, but it is one component when people talk about Cadets or an Increase of Officers in any given area.

Complex issue with difficult decisions to be made, falling into the political sphere.

[beatlesque]

I invited Stefano Grande of Downtown WPG Biz via Twitter to share his thoughts here on these issues if he's interested.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by beatlesque

I invited Stefano Grande of Downtown WPG Biz via Twitter to share his thoughts here on these issues if he's interested.

Well done.

[beatlesque]

Originally Posted by Cyro

So a visible, ongoing presence downtown imo, will eventually translate into a perception/ and actual feeling of safety for the area and those that use it, ex: for shopping. It's not as easy as I am trying to make it sound, but it is one component when people talk about Cadets or an Increase of Officers in any given area.

Complex issue with difficult decisions to be made, falling into the political sphere.

By the way, I think this is a very interesting point - perception, which is why I mentioned things like streetscaping on an aesthetic level (which I have commended the Biz for; why not even put up statues of players like Selanne etc. - yes I am aware of the ridiculous thing of Phoenix owning Jets history but there must be some way around it - beside the arena and build the fabric/uniqueness of the area).

It's also why it's too bad about Apple in my opinion; I believe that it could have been located in the most obscure location in WPG and people would have still gone. People go to MEC b/c it is a unique store, and it's great that they believed in that location.

Edit: Saw this too - haven't looked at all the candidate's twitter accounts: https://twitter.com/Judy_WL/status/503958560460795905
https://twitter.com/SKKav/status/497811377176977408
https://twitter.com/SKKav/status/500289615405006848
etc.
I did hear the talk about transforming the Exchange District etc.

[DowntownStefano]

The BIZ and our partners developed a plan 5 years ago.

http://downtownwinnipegbiz.com/new-retail-strategy/

It met resistance at City Hall, correction 2 councillors in control of everything, who seem to be committed to suburban retail development more, governed by opinion and not best practise.

Downtown retail is a struggle no doubt. The income levels in the immediate area /residents are very low to attract unique retailers, never mind the Targets and WholeFoods of the world.

I remember speaking to HM who were interested in coming downtown, but wanted free rent (15-20 years) to offset low sales per square foot, and a plan to attract their competitors to the immediate area. There was no interest by other dtwn stakeholders. Fast forward 5 years all of those single market international stores are now here, but not downtown. Its game over on this approach.

We also advocated for reduced rent levels (grants) to help local retailers develop their local and unique concepts and to cluster stores. Again, no buy in. We have asked CV to revisit this plan, and they are now, to their credit. There are some very early concepts – Launch It and Push, aimed at helping local entrepreneurs to start up downtown.

Ultimately housing density / higher income households will attract the retail new condo owners envision. It may take another decade if the housing development continues. Until then, intervention, creativity and public/private partnerships are needed to attract the services people who live and work downtown want.

[esquire]

^ Welcome to the forum, DowntownStefano.

[beatlesque]

Originally Posted by DowntownStefano

The BIZ and our partners developed a plan 5 years ago.

http://downtownwinnipegbiz.com/new-retail-strategy/

It met resistance at City Hall, correction 2 councillors in control of everything, who seem to be committed to suburban retail development more, governed by opinion and not best practise.

Downtown retail is a struggle no doubt. The income levels in the immediate area /residents are very low to attract unique retailers, never mind the Targets and WholeFoods of the world.

I remember speaking to HM who were interested in coming downtown, but wanted free rent (15-20 years) to offset low sales per square foot, and a plan to attract their competitors to the immediate area. There was no interest by other dtwn stakeholders. Fast forward 5 years all of those single market international stores are now here, but not downtown. Its game over on this approach.

We also advocated for reduced rent levels (grants) to help local retailers develop their local and unique concepts and to cluster stores. Again, no buy in. We have asked CV to revisit this plan, and they are now, to their credit. There are some very early concepts – Launch It and Push, aimed at helping local entrepreneurs to start up downtown.

Ultimately housing density / higher income households will attract the retail new condo owners envision. It may take another decade if the housing development continues. Until then, intervention, creativity and public/private partnerships are needed to attract the services people who live and work downtown want.

Yes great to have this insider insight, DwtnStefano, thx. That's very interesting about HM, and about those city councillors - not surprising. I hope you'll continue to follow the discussions on these boards as a lot of people are interested in the work that's going on, and the battles and negotiations you're involved with...

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by Cyro

Sorry, but Social issues that are prevelent in the core are a major factor that need much work for things to prosper.

While this certainly isn't false, it's all about perception. I see more panhandlers/weirdos in Osborne village than downtown but that doesn't stop people from going there.