[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[q12]

Originally Posted by Dartboy

again even number that are objective can be viewed in different ways. I see a spike in 08/09 but essentially flat to slightly inclining revs and declining attendance. However what I didnty point out was the incredible decline in visitor expenditures on that first page. I know that on another report at TCL there is a lot more detail on local versus away delegates. obviosuly away delegates spend a lot more than local ones. But direct expenditures of $74 Million last year versus $100 Million as thw worst of any of the previous 4 reported years,

WHAT if the economy doesn't IMPROVE? What if Convention center as an industry does not recover?

WE own our own place now. WE want to now lease a space and commit for 25 years and have nothing at the end. I am still not 100% comfortable with it but am willing to move ahead and see where these negotiations bring us. Some comment on the CBC or Herald was really to the point. He was a businessman but his statement was " How many businesses does this really impact?" so I gave that some thought. Downtown businesses for sure. Bars resteraunts clothing stores, Hotels cabs and airlines for sure. And the obvious suppliers to those businesses.

SO lets continue the process but I am wary

Wary of what? The first significant downtown development in Halifax in decades that will be constructed soon and actually includes "Skyscrapers".

This design now looks good, it has a hotel, financial centre, residential, and retail versus a big whole in the ground for two city blocks for the next decade.

[DigitalNinja]

I agree, there is nothing for anyone to be wary about. Sometimes I hate democracy in such a form that everyone gets a say, I tell ya if I was in power...

Anyway, to put into perspective how much is really going into this center, each of the 3 levels of gov are putting in 1/3 basically, maybe less for HRM, not to bad, I don't mind taking money from other provinces.

Also, to show how little this money is, Wadih of W M Fares is worth only a little less than the total cost of this development.

Anything of this amount only seems like a lot because most people don't have it in their pockets.

[musicman]

Let's stop talking about a 15000 seat arena... It is a ridiculous number to put forward considering it is roughly 3000 more that what can be put in there now for Hockey... Aim for 22000 or 23000... Damn Moncton is looking at 15000 right now. 15000 is a joke.

[FuzzyWuz]

Here's something I'd like to see: To reply to those who say that all of the office needs of the CBD could be met with six story buildings why not paint a financial picture of a six story office building going where UG development towers are planned? Start with the price paid for the land, the annual business tax, the cost of putting up the structure, the income generated by leases etc. That would make an interesting discussion piece I would think.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by musicman

Let's stop talking about a 15000 seat arena... It is a ridiculous number to put forward considering it is roughly 3000 more that what can be put in there now for Hockey... Aim for 22000 or 23000... Damn Moncton is looking at 15000 right now. 15000 is a joke.

I am thinking in terms of 15,000 seats for a hockey arena in 10 - 15 years (it could be expandable to 17,000). But first I would like to see a 25,000 seat stadium (which would have a capacity of about 45,000 for concerts). A 22,000 - 23,000 seat arena (for hockey) would be the largest hockey arena in North America (are you really serious about such an idea?).

PS: The 15,051 seat Winnipeg MTS Centre is one of the most successful entertainment venues in the world - http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/loc...d38266214.html . I don't see anything ridiculous about that. The current Metro Centre seats 10,595. Are you confusing the seating capacity with the concert capacity that includes people on the arena floor?

PS: Moncton is actually considering a new 9,000 seat arena - http://c103forum.freeforums.org/new-...cton-t496.html

[musicman]

The average NHL hockey arena is in the 18000 to 19000 range if memory serves me correct... So ok i may be a little high but we are aiming for a rink the size that moncton is going to build.. I would say 15000 would be shooting ourselves in the foot .. Why not 18000 expandable to 21000 or 22000.. To spend millions on an arena to gain 3000 seats seems ridiculous to me.

[musicman]

10950 i have been told is seated capacity.... for hockey and even then with that capacity 15000 is still a small venue for arena standards of today let alone 10 or 15 years down the road... We are not going to be building this anytime soon, we need a stadium, amongst many other thing first so we build a 15000 seat arena to last us 10 years which is in all likely hood not going to be built for 10 years. It needs to be expandable to the 20000 to 21000 range so it can grow as the city grows...

[fenwick16]

We have gotten off the Nova Centre topic. My point was that the Metro Centre/WTCC superblock might be good for a larger hockey/basketball arena in the future so maybe selling the WTCC to a private interest might not be a good idea.

Councillor Sloane's idea of a museum sounds good. I remember reading that there are historic artifacts stored in a warehouse in Burnside.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuz

Here's something I'd like to see: To reply to those who say that all of the office needs of the CBD could be met with six story buildings why not paint a financial picture of a six story office building going where UG development towers are planned? Start with the price paid for the land, the annual business tax, the cost of putting up the structure, the income generated by leases etc. That would make an interesting discussion piece I would think.

The six storey plan is destroying the tax base potential downtown. Cambridge Suites, Prince George and Marriott Siutes Inn take up far too much real estate for their return. The city can max out the tax potential on the Herald/Midtown site if the convention centre is built. If it is rejected the tax return will be far lower and the potential for neighbouring assessments to increase will be much less.


- opportunity for 4.5 star hotel (400 rooms)
- opportunity to tap international market for financial services companies
- opportunity to build needed class A office space and not just talk about it like Ben McCrae
- opportunity to eliminate the blight of that site
- opportunity to expand convention business that will have a net positive impact on HRM and the province
- I'm quite sure I have read that some of the best known hotel chains have a min room requirement around the 400 mark

[FuzzyWuz]

Originally Posted by Empire

The six storey plan is destroying the tax base potential downtown. Cambridge Suites, Prince George and Marriott Siutes Inn take up far too much real estate for their return. The city can max out the tax potential on the Herald/Midtown site if the convention centre is built. If it is rejected the tax return will be far lower and the potential for neighbouring assessments to increase will be much less.


- opportunity for 4.5 star hotel (400 rooms)
- opportunity to tap international market for financial services companies
- opportunity to build needed class A office space and not just talk about it like Ben McCrae
- opportunity to eliminate the blight of that site
- opportunity to expand convention business that will have a net positive impact on HRM and the province
- I'm quite sure I have read that some of the best known hotel chains have a min room requirement around the 400 mark

Excellent. I was asking because I read where Epstein made the six story claim and it would be nice to be able to have something readily available to show him, or anyone, and say, "Here's what your six stories does do our city!"

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuz

Excellent. I was asking because I read where Epstein made the six story claim and it would be nice to be able to have something readily available to show him, or anyone, and say, "Here's what your six stories does do our city!"

But it makes no difference because he and his buddies like Bousquet will say that the figures are wrong, the books are cooked, and the proponents are lying. It is not about facts with these people.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuz

Excellent. I was asking because I read where Epstein made the six story claim and it would be nice to be able to have something readily available to show him, or anyone, and say, "Here's what your six stories does do our city!"

Yeah, it would be good to have evidence on hand. The anti-development crew have already made up their mind, so its only really to show other people how stupid these sorts of statements are.

If you want 6 story buildings in the downtown then you are also anti-environment in my opinion. Its funny how these groups are constantly doing things that really don't support their other beliefs like "social justice" or "environmental protection". I wonder if it could be caluclated how they have contributed to urban sprawl.

Look at Purdy's as a great example of population density and green features in a building.

[Dartboy]

I have beeen discussing this with others. IF we are , in effect, just leasing space which is really all this is then why are are we paying 1/3 up front - well the feds have been asked to do so?

If I go lease space I get a few months for free over a set term. IF I lease a car I am not forced to lay out that much up front.

I am getting comfortable with the dollar cost but I really think or feel that the financing for the project for Ramia is contingent on him getting that money up front. BY that I mean he needs to finance the whole project and that $50 large up front allows him to finance the entire deal.

I have no issue with the man never had - frankly I know little about him. Just seems he is using tax dollars as leverage

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Dartboy

I have beeen discussing this with others. IF we are , in effect, just leasing space which is really all this is then why are are we paying 1/3 up front - well the feds have been asked to do so?

The federal government isn't being asked to pay it up front, it is at the end of substantial completion, in other words 2015. This is what the province is hoping for - it hasn't been finalized.

A lease is what the province wants, not what Rank Inc. is demanding. According to Joe Ramia (stated before the HRM council), a lease arrangement was requested in the Request For Proposals. Here is a link explaining the rationale for requesting a lease - 34/61 to 39/61 of this pdf file - https://conventioncentreinfo.com/wp-...tte_Report.pdf.

[halifaxboyns]

Epstein, Devine and the rest of the STV and anti-development crowd made up their minds a long time ago. 6 Stories or nothing...viewplanes, or die. Personally - I would like to see a balance. My balance would be - in the viewplanes, smaller buildings. Outside the buildings; go up to the ramparts but when you exceed certain heights - you push away from the viewplane edges to avoid some of the 'walling in effect'. That would be my compromise. So typically; you'd probably have a two or 3 storey podium with commercial at grade - then up to 10 stories. Beyond that; I'd want to see the building pushed away from the edge of the viewplane in stages until you get to your maximum height. Reasonable approach and achieves balance.

Keith is correct; you will always maximize your tax base by getting the most intense tax return on more intense uses - that's why Purdy's and Maritime Centre pay a lot in taxes. So the way you prove the theory is to show the tax base you generate from those buildings - chances are you can use them as a base point for this project (to a degree).

As I posted earlier; this argument is going to keep happening with increasing frequency until it's settled one way or the other. Frankly; if people are for or against something - attend the public hearing and put your views out on the table (or write in). I'd like to see as part of the next Regional Plan a year long exercise that is a vision for the City; before the plan is actually done. That way; the city has more policy to support it's position and for god-sake can we please reword that clause in the MPS that says restore the view?! Because that's insane...

I read a few comments into the Herald about the centre and now people are bringing in the environmental argument about all the people coming to the centre from out of town - by air, being a huge environmental nightmare. My response is; yes, you are right. But they can come by car, they can come by train or by bus. But until we are using some other form of fuel - there isn't much of an alternative. Besides, conferences often offer green initiatives like carbon credits and things like that.

Personally - I'm hopeful that if this goes ahead; it would create such a demand on transportation that we'd see a lot of US flight frequency increasing, a few new european flights (Perhaps BA or Lufthansa) and increased freequency with AC and westjet - but mainly I'd like to see Via's Ocean go back to daily if not twice daily.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Dartboy

I have beeen discussing this with others. IF we are , in effect, just leasing space which is really all this is then why are are we paying 1/3 up front - well the feds have been asked to do so?

If I go lease space I get a few months for free over a set term. IF I lease a car I am not forced to lay out that much up front.

I am getting comfortable with the dollar cost but I really think or feel that the financing for the project for Ramia is contingent on him getting that money up front. BY that I mean he needs to finance the whole project and that $50 large up front allows him to finance the entire deal.

I have no issue with the man never had - frankly I know little about him. Just seems he is using tax dollars as leverage

I think the reason for the money being paid up front is moreso related to having a better amortization for the public funds. With a larger amount paid up front, the interest cost is less overall.

Its like people who don't put large enough down payments to ever even pay off their house.

It makes sense to always have as big of a down payment as possible, even if rates are low, because you end up paying less interest in time.

Leasing a car is usually not a good deal.

[halifaxboyns]

I had a very interesting experience the other day on facebook. I'm in a few of these 'fringe' groups pages on facebook and I posted a comment.
I ended up getting a few people emailing me - so I've had some rather interesting debates.

I won't reveal their names (and no one of them wasn't Bruce); but I think what's got some of them thinking was the question I possed, which is this: If the convention centre doesn't happen, then what other project could be done to create jobs? Regardless of whether there is funding from government - what could happen that would generate these construction jobs?

I love turning their arguments against them.
What surprised me though was based on one of the convention centre articles the CH posted; I made a comment that when HbD was adopted they didn't have to include the 'convention centre clause' in it. Apparently someone asked about it. I really wanted to post that I wrote that; but I decided it was best not too.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I think the reason for the money being paid up front is moreso related to having a better amortization for the public funds. With a larger amount paid up front, the interest cost is less overall.

Governments get better deals on financing than smaller companies.

[Empire]

Priceless....

Unconventional reason


Michael Stanbury’s Nov. 11 letter to the editor states, as a reason for not building the proposed convention centre, that "the carbon waste from the flights (jetliner loads flying in and out of Halifax, servicing events) would not only drop into Nova Scotia, but would be deposited along the entire path to wherever they came from."

Now, there! I bet Mr. Pacey and his anti-convention centre, coalition-view-crowd never thought of that one.


Robert A. Stapells, Halifax

[CorbeauNoir]

Well that settles it! Fetch the torches and pitchforks, time to smash down the airport!