[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[macgregor]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

Some impressions:
Dr. Saunders during his lecture was rude, and condescending. Anytime someone would get up to ask him a real question he would cut them off and continue talking. His argument was quite weak and pulled together from ad hoc numbers that if truly analyzed did not show any discrepancies.

Sometimes I like to argue against common sense for fun with friends, but this guy makes a living out of it! That's impressive. It reminds me of the movie 'Thank you for Smoking'.

A few days ago ATV's Steve Murphy interviewed Col. Sanders (con side) and a woman (pro side). The Colonel came of as smug and making sweeping generalizations, the woman wasn't very convincing either, but it was good to have the public discussion.

[halifaxboyns]

I think the problem with his numbers is that exactly what the industry has pointed out. The data set he chose was a year before the North American dot com bubble burst, but didn't come into today. My understanding is he took numbers from 1988 to 2002.

Hmmm lets see - what happened during those times? Dot com burst and...oh wait, oh yeah! 9/11! Wow, that's not slanted dated or anything?

If he took a much broader data set (say from 1975 to today) then I'm sure we could see a pattern and his argument would be very weak. Attendance goes down when the economy goes into recession or decline.

I think the fact he comes off smug and rude, really doesn't surprise me. Every article I've read said the same thing.

And I agree with Keith - I was particularly fond of the comment in the herald today that this guy could've attended via a phone link or video conference, but he chose to come here. Like the author said - being in person helps us better to articulate and understand our positions better.

[David1gray]

halifaxboyns, i just read your comment on CBC's website. i couldnt agree more with your comments. the view plane from brightwood makes no sense at all. and this is a city which is growing. i cant believe how many people have posted negative comments there.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

A number of convention centres got money - especially Vancouver's (although that was mainly due to the olympics I'd guess). I know Calgary's convention centre got some $ because I remember seeing the sign.

That was also during the stimulus spending time which will end in a few months. Hopefully they will fork over the money because St. John's is planning on building on a piece to their convention centre and $20 odd million from the feds would be pretty good.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

That was also during the stimulus spending time which will end in a few months. Hopefully they will fork over the money because St. John's is planning on building on a piece to their convention centre and $20 odd million from the feds would be pretty good.

The stimulus program is set to expire soon as you state. However, most news sources are stating that the funding for the Halifax convention centre would be from a different federal program which was initiated in 2007 (before the stimulus program) and currently has funding committed up to the year 2014. That is the "Building Canada Fund" as the illustration below shows. It might be out of the Public-Private Partnerships Fund shown below in an orange box.

(source: http://www.buildingcanada-chantierscanada.gc.ca/plandocs/index-eng.html )


One of the infrastructure programs that they fund are convention centres:

(source: http://www.buildingcanada-chantierscanada.gc.ca/plandocs/bg-di/bg-di-fs-fr-eng.html )

Building Canada will help support a stronger Canadian economy by investing in infrastructure that contributes to increased trade, efficient movement of goods and people, and economic growth. This will include projects such as improvements to the core National Highway System, short-line railways, short-sea shipping, regional and local airports, broadband, and convention centres.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by q12

On News 95.7 Maritime Morning, Jordi Morgon had Sue Uteck and Tim Outhit on and Sue said it was Jennifer Watts and Jackie Barkhouse who voted against it.

After watching some of the questions Watts and Barkhouse asked last night during the session, I'd say they are not only Anti-Development but also just incompetent Councillors in general.

Interesting that the two of them teamed up to buy an ad in the Coast this week congratulating the third member of the unholy trio, Sloane, who inexplicably won "Best Councillor" award in that paper's annual nonsensical poll of readers and professional ballot box stuffers. Even more sad is that our property tax dollars probably paid for the ad.

Barkhouse, is a former union organizer and like Watts, is a hardcore NDPer. It is therefore no surprise that she is against spending on economic growth and business initiatives.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by David1gray

halifaxboyns, i just read your comment on CBC's website. i couldnt agree more with your comments. the view plane from brightwood makes no sense at all. and this is a city which is growing. i cant believe how many people have posted negative comments there.

Not surprised one bit - remember, Nova Scotian's love to complain. My latest post reminded everyone that all parties supported the centre. However, I don't see they've posted that; so I suspect either the forum moderator has gone home or they decided not to post it.

I think this project is a step in the right direction; but is one to open up a broader conversation (like I've said before) in order to look at how we grow. We can either have the conversation now or as part of the next regional plan, but I think it should be now. You can do a vision exercise now that forms part of the next regional plan, that's how Calgary did it.

[Dartboy]

I think that Council made a wise choice to move forward. WE do need to explore this opportunity. We need to get through the numbers and the deal. They keep calling it a 500 Million Project and our piece is 140 million backing out the financing. I still have no idea if that 500 is the entire project. If so, then we seem to be paying a disproportionate amount.

now my second point is where is the 2009-2010 TLC annual report for year end March 31, 2010? this seems quite late. edit its there now

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Dartboy

I think that Council made a wise choice to move forward. WE do need to explore this opportunity. We need to get through the numbers and the deal. They keep calling it a 500 Million Project and our piece is 140 million backing out the financing. I still have no idea if that 500 is the entire project. If so, then we seem to be paying a disproportionate amount.

The convention centre is the only public part of this proposal but is only about one third of what is planned for the site. The $500M figure includes a privately-built hotel and office tower.

The $140M is the total public cost for the convention centre component that will be split between the three levels of government.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Dartboy

I think that Council made a wise choice to move forward. WE do need to explore this opportunity. We need to get through the numbers and the deal. They keep calling it a 500 Million Project and our piece is 140 million backing out the financing. I still have no idea if that 500 is the entire project. If so, then we seem to be paying a disproportionate amount.

If it is compared with the new Central Library then it seems to be reasonable. The new Central Library would be 109,000 Gross square feet and the convention centre would be 306,000 Gross Square feet (as stated by Joe Ramia to the HRM council last night). So if you work out a proportional cost based on the Central Library the cost would be:

306,000/109,000 x $55M = $154.4M

And just remember that over half of that square footage of the convention centre is 30 foot high ceilings (3 times the height of a normal residential or hotel level, and about 2 times the height of a normal Class A office level).

[Dartboy]

Fen thanks for the comparison.seems the 140 is a good number - I guess I would prefer a free standing center. Anyway.TCL numbers are on website - take a look at 5 year trend for TCL and specifically the convention center.

http://www.advocateprinting.biz/tcl/ar0910/pageflip.html

[fenwick16]

The Coast and Tim Bousquet had a short story about the HRM council deliberations yesterday. He actually sounds less strongly against it than in past articles (he must like the new design ). He also seems to like the Simpsons - he gives his version of the televised council session. Here is the story - http://www.thecoast.ca/RealityBites/arch...ward-with-convention-centre-negotiations

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Dartboy

Fen thanks for the comparison.seems the 140 is a good number - I guess I would prefer a free standing center. Anyway.TCL numbers are on website - take a look at 5 year trend for TCL and specifically the convention center.

http://www.advocateprinting.biz/tcl/ar0910/pageflip.html

That is an interesting link - you can look at that either way. It had an impressive growth rate during the 3 years between 2005/2006 and 2008/2009, prior to the recession when it started to decrease. The economy will eventually start to improve, so the convention centre will be complete at a time when the economy is doing well again and more people are traveling and spending money.

[halifaxboyns]

One thing I found interesting in council's deliberations yesterday was a comment that Dawn Sloane made. It was in regards to the old WTCC and looking at going back to get a better deal - which certainly the HRM finance staff did a great job in presenting (yes HRM could get a better deal and should).

She asked staff to look into the possibility of using the old WTCC as some sort of cultural space - now she wasn't specific but for some reason that resonated with me.

There is a lack of cultural space (so I am told) and where better to have some of it than in the central downtown. I thought it was an interesting avenue to look at and certainly her comments in favour of public art for this project had merit too.

Now realizing this; Bruce Devanne will step in to stop it. He's the kind of person that would cut out transit and tell people that if they can't afford cabs or cars to hitch-hike.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by q12

Daytime rendering, which Joe Ramia is saying is still very much fluid and will likely change again with more input.

Source Haligonia.ca (Screenshot)

Watching some online, quite interesting listening to Scott Ferguson and Joe Ramia. Council seems to be quite positive with their questions to them for the most part which gives me a good feeling that this will proceed.

I told you guys that there would be a better design!

This looks great!

[Empire]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

One thing I found interesting in council's deliberations yesterday was a comment that Dawn Sloane made. It was in regards to the old WTCC and looking at going back to get a better deal - which certainly the HRM finance staff did a great job in presenting (yes HRM could get a better deal and should).

She asked staff to look into the possibility of using the old WTCC as some sort of cultural space - now she wasn't specific but for some reason that resonated with me.

There is a lack of cultural space (so I am told) and where better to have some of it than in the central downtown. I thought it was an interesting avenue to look at and certainly her comments in favour of public art for this project had merit too.

Now realizing this; Bruce Devanne will step in to stop it. He's the kind of person that would cut out transit and tell people that if they can't afford cabs or cars to hitch-hike.

Bruce has been rather silent lately, perhaps he is confused?
Maybe the old trade centre could become a Performing Arts Centre? Being connected to the Met the possibilities would be endless not to mention funding should be available..

[Dartboy]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

That is an interesting link - you can look at that either way. It had an impressive growth rate during the 3 years between 2005/2006 and 2008/2009, prior to the recession when it started to decrease. The economy will eventually start to improve, so the convention centre will be complete at a time when the economy is doing well again and more people are traveling and spending money.

again even number that are objective can be viewed in different ways. I see a spike in 08/09 but essentially flat to slightly inclining revs and declining attendance. However what I didnty point out was the incredible decline in visitor expenditures on that first page. I know that on another report at TCL there is a lot more detail on local versus away delegates. obviosuly away delegates spend a lot more than local ones. But direct expenditures of $74 Million last year versus $100 Million as thw worst of any of the previous 4 reported years,

WHAT if the economy doesn't IMPROVE? What if Convention center as an industry does not recover?

WE own our own place now. WE want to now lease a space and commit for 25 years and have nothing at the end. I am still not 100% comfortable with it but am willing to move ahead and see where these negotiations bring us. Some comment on the CBC or Herald was really to the point. He was a businessman but his statement was " How many businesses does this really impact?" so I gave that some thought. Downtown businesses for sure. Bars resteraunts clothing stores, Hotels cabs and airlines for sure. And the obvious suppliers to those businesses.

SO lets continue the process but I am wary

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Dartboy

again even number that are objective can be viewed in different ways. I see a spike in 08/09 but essentially flat to slightly inclining revs and declining attendance. However what I didnty point out was the incredible decline in visitor expenditures on that first page. I know that on another report at TCL there is a lot more detail on local versus away delegates. obviosuly away delegates spend a lot more than local ones. But direct expenditures of $74 Million last year versus $100 Million as thw worst of any of the previous 4 reported years,

WHAT if the economy doesn't IMPROVE? What if Convention center as an industry does not recover?

WE own our own place now. WE want to now lease a space and commit for 25 years and have nothing at the end. I am still not 100% comfortable with it but am willing to move ahead and see where these negotiations bring us. Some comment on the CBC or Herald was really to the point. He was a businessman but his statement was " How many businesses does this really impact?" so I gave that some thought. Downtown businesses for sure. Bars resteraunts clothing stores, Hotels cabs and airlines for sure. And the obvious suppliers to those businesses.

SO lets continue the process but I am wary

Again, we are not talking about a huge sum of money. This is not billions, it is a few million. This amount of money is spent endlessly by government on income tax rebates, ACOA incentives and capital projects such as the fourplex and library. The difference is that this project can realize a real return in terms of jobs, economic spinoff, development stimulus, tourism etc. In addition, this development will have a 4 1/2 star hotel with 400 rooms and this does not currently exist in the city. The office tower will be class A space and have the potential to attract major financial firms because the complex has a 4.5 star hotel and a tier 2 convention centre. I would challenge STV, Colonel Sanders and Bruce to table a different economic plan (not a convention centre) where this type of activity can be generated with the same amount of tax payers dollars and potentially make a profit down the road!

[JustinMacD]

lol @ the Save The View Facebook group:

Liz MacDougall Letters to the Chronicle Herald re: convention centre 3:1 against
Votes from City Councilors re: convention centre 22:2 for

I think it's clear that our city councilors are led around by the nose by business interests via Peter Kelly.

--

This woman is using FOUR letters sent to the Chronicle Herald as a way of saying that our councilors aren't listening to Haligonians.

These people are nuts. Completely insane.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

Bruce has been rather silent lately, perhaps he is confused?
Maybe the old trade centre could become a Performing Arts Centre? Being connected to the Met the possibilities would be endless not to mention funding should be available..

It would certainly be good if the province or HRM would hold onto the old WTCC. There were 49 years between the completion of the old Halifax Forum and the completion of the Metro Centre (1978 - 1929). If that same time period is used before the completion of a new 15,000 seat Metro Centre II, then a new Metro Centre II would need to be completed by the year 2027 (so it would have to be started in the year 2025 which is only 15 years away). If the old WTCC and old Metro Centre were torn down then a 15,000 seat (or larger) Metro Centre II could be built there. Looking at it in other terms, it won't be until 2015 that the Nova Centre would be completed. So a new Metro II will be needed 10 years after the WTCC I has become obsolete. It is interesting that there is the possibility of building a tunnel to the new Nova Centre from the Metro Centre I (or Metro Centre II).

This is how the Winnipeg MTS Centre (15,000 seat arena) would fit at that location.

PS: Maybe we should send the image below to Bruce D. We should give him 15 years to get accustomed to the idea.