Canadian Foreign Policy & Affairs II

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

If $1.8B bears any relation to reality, Canada should pick up 8 or 10 of them. Seems like a serious bargain. I take it that they could operate under Arctic ice for some weeks at a time?

I wonder if CAF haven't already decided which sub they want? Shades of the F-35!

If not nuclear, there's a basically two questions to ask:

1) How big? The Victoria Class is ~2500t. For long endurance and higher capability you have to go more than 3000t.

2) At 3000t, there are basically four contenders: Soryu (Japan), KSS III (Korea), Type 216 (Germany) and Shortfin Barracuda (France). There's capability differences among the four contenders but not anything like the F-35 where there was a clear winner on capability. But really the biggest drivers of this choice are going to be industrial considerations and long term geopolitical relationships.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

What would the name be if New Zealand joins too? CANZUKUSA?

Just recreating ABCANZ.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABCANZ_Armies

But also all of these:

Equivalent organizations for the nations' navies (AUSCANNZUKUS - Australia, Canada, New Zealand, United Kingdom and United States naval C4 organization),[3] air forces (ASIC - Air and Space Interoperability Council),[4] the military scientific communities (TTCP - The Technical Cooperation Program), and the Intelligence communities (UKUSA and Five Eyes) also exist.

That list should give an indication of how intertwined our militaries and our wider defence industrial complexes are enmeshed and why AUKUS is bad for us.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That's normal. That's why they get scrubbed and painted regularly.

Not so much any more. There are very stringent enviro rules pertaining to Marine paint combinations and conditions to paint Ships now in Canada
Of course the RCN used to Winter in Roosevelt Roads and do their painting there but thats gone now.
Over on Army.ca there is a more comprehensive discussion on the paint situation on the AOPS thread.

[shreddog]

DM Blair said that we sent an AOPS to deter the Russians (and show them that we can mean business too!)

Warship’s visit to Cuba was intended to deter Russia, says minister

But Defence Minister Bill Blair said Monday that “presence is deterrence. We were present,” offering a new justification for the port visit.

“The Canadian ship visited Havana to demonstrate Canada’s presence, naval capability and commitment to safe and open waters in the Americas,” he told reporters.
...

And nothing says Deterrence like a Mean conga line!

Royal Canadian Navy led conga lines in Havana as part of ‘deterrence’ visit to Cuba, photos show

Link

Best thing that can be said about Blair, is that Anand's reputation as an ex-DM gets better every day!

[MonctonRad]

I’m sure our pathetic pea shooter deck gun frightened the crap out of the Ruskies!

[Truenorth00]

The gun on that ship is less relevant to this than the sensors. If they got good data on the Russians, it was worthwhile. Nobody knows if they did.

Give you guys an example. We have one military surveillance satellite:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapphire_(satellite)

This thing was only supposed to last 5 years. Bit of overengineering paid off. But this one thing, gets us access and a seat at the table because it contributes to various efforts, most notably the US Space Surveillance Network. Sometimes it's not the gun you bring to the fight, it's the telescope.

I hope they got things like acoustic and EM signatures of that sub.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

...
Give you guys an example. We have one military surveillance satellite:
...
I hope they got things like acoustic and EM signatures of that sub.

While your point is correct about some of the value add that Canada brings to the table, technically speaking Sapphire points "up" and not down ... that is it spies on other satellites. PE2 on the other hand provides the downward SAR intel.

I didn't think it has an extended ISR intel suite onboard other than what comes with MH ... though I'm hoping the 148 did some "scanning" along the way.

[Truenorth00]

Every little bit helps. Our allies were once able to figure out the launch capabilities of a certain system because an embassy employee was driving through the countryside of the country they were in and when they pulled up to get gas, the launcher pulled in to the gas station. Wife takes photo with the launcher in the background and thanks to photogrammetry and the known dimensions of tires, the engineers could figure out range of that Ballistic Missile. Sometimes, even those innocent side trips luck out.

Let's hope our guys got some useful data to help our allies.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by shreddog

While your point is correct about some of the value add that Canada brings to the table, technically speaking Sapphire points "up" and not down ... that is it spies on other satellites.

Correct. And that's how it contributes to the USSN. And that contribution (small as it is) gets us access. And it's (part of) why we have a seat here:



So we shouldn't underestimate how these small efforts pay off. That said, Blair is . ...

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'm sure the Ruskie sailors are rolling on the poop deck in uncontrollable spasms of laughter, mirth and hilarity looking at the pea shooter mounted to the foredeck of our fearsome AOPS ship.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I’m sure our pathetic pea shooter deck gun frightened the crap out of the Ruskies!

I'm sure you're aware that we have more capable ships for situations where they're needed.

But I must say, your fixation on the size of the gun is fascinating.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Mister F

But I must say, your fixation on the size of the gun is fascinating.

The symbolism is breathtaking, and reflective of the contempt that JT has for Canada's military forces.

[drew]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The symbolism is breathtaking, and reflective of the contempt that JT has for Canada's military forces.

HMCS Margaret Brooke Harry DeWolf Class announced in 2007.

Ordered in 2011.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The symbolism is breathtaking, and reflective of the contempt that JT has for Canada's military forces.

The specs for that ship weren't written under this government. Just saying.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If not nuclear, there's a basically two questions to ask:

1) How big? The Victoria Class is ~2500t. For long endurance and higher capability you have to go more than 3000t.

2) At 3000t, there are basically four contenders: Soryu (Japan), KSS III (Korea), Type 216 (Germany) and Shortfin Barracuda (France). There's capability differences among the four contenders but not anything like the F-35 where there was a clear winner on capability. But really the biggest drivers of this choice are going to be industrial considerations and long term geopolitical relationships.

What are your thoughts on adopting air independent propulsion (AIP) for a future Canadian Navy sub class?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

What are your thoughts on adopting air independent propulsion (AIP) for a future Canadian Navy sub class?

I'll let the navy guy really dive into this. But to my understanding, we don't have a lot of options here. Pick one of those four and take whatever the boat comes with.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'll let the navy guy really dive into this. But to my understanding, we don't have a lot of options here. Pick one of those four and take whatever the boat comes with.

I sit near the submariners who are working on the not yet approved project. I have no insight to their thoughts on AIP as a viable submarine.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

I sit near the submariners who are working on the not yet approved project. I have no insight to their thoughts on AIP as a viable submarine.

I think it's basically a choice between AIP (across the four contenders) and nuclear. So is that really a choice?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think it's basically a choice between AIP (across the four contenders) and nuclear. So is that really a choice?

It's always hard to predict the future but there is an argument that the Artic which requires nuclear isn't the biggest use case right now. New Diesal submarines could be very useful in a Taiwan confrontation.

[casper]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The symbolism is breathtaking, and reflective of the contempt that JT has for Canada's military forces.

So sending one of your less capable ships to spend some time observing the opposition up close while keeping your more advanced one far away an a bit of a mystery does sounds like a smart move.

Canada gains nothing by sending a frigate to Cuba.

While we can all believe that is the result of detailed analysis by JT, his depths of expertise in foreign relations, the reality is he likely had little involvement.

[Dartguard]

A friend of mines Dad was on a RCN St Petersburg visit back in the 70's. There were all these additional crew that showed up in Halifax that started buggering around the Hull below the waterline of the St Laurent class that sailed as part of the visit. There were new faces that were aboard with ill fitting uniforms and made up ranks. Mr friends Dad was a senior CPO in Engineering and knew everyone in his trade. He did not know these "new" sailors. The Ship had never sailed with that many folks across the Atlantic before.

I wonder how many extra guests the Brooke had aboard for the Havana visit.