VIA Rail

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, Calgary and Edmonton agreed and still agree that they should not have regular service?

If they want it, it could be successful, if done right. If they don't want it, it shouldn't be forced on them.

I do agree that we likely could see a hydrogen sooner in a train than a car. Mind you, I don't see why they would not just go electric instead. Trains are effectively electric, but they carry a generator with them.

Not sure if you know this, but a hydrogen fuel cell also generates electricity, so switching to hydrogen would still be electric (and yes I know that most trains in North America have diesel-electric locomotives).

I assume what you are trying to say by going "electric instead" is having overhead wires and there are a few problems with that. One of the big ones is distributing the massive amount of power needed to haul freight train over the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of kilometers of tracks would be a massive undertaking and would be cost prohibitive. The line loses for distributing all that power wouldn't be insignificant either.

I have accepted that if anything is going to happen with Via, it will first happen in the Corridor. So, if they electrify the Corridor, then, maybe it will happen elsewhere.

People travel there likely every few months for a weekend, or even the day. Having a daily service could capture some of that. Bus is considered low class, so you cannot use the bus as a direct comparison. Prior to covid, there were about 4 flights or more a day from Toronto.

Most people? Lets say they travelled on average to Toronto every 3 months or 4 times a year (seem high to me as while some may go more often some may almost never make the trip). If you also assume that a daily train would attract about 1% of the travelers (1/5 of the percentage of the much higher TOM service frequency). With a population of 164,689, that means each train would have 18 people on board. Now there are also those who live in Toronto who want to travel to Sudbury. I suspect that would a small minority of those making the trip, but even if you assume it is an equal number, that is still only 36 people on board.

A unique comparison would be the old Northlander, that in the last few years were using more than they used to -- more than 2 cars + snack car for the entire route. It was a daily, and it served less than the population of just Sudbury. I could see a smaller train being a good thing for a daily. Maybe if ONR runs the HCR, a daily train from SSM-Sudbury-Toronto would work. That is well over 200,000 besides anything in the GTA.

How long the train is one thing. How full the train is, is another.

I am hoping they have sorted out the Ocean turning around in Halifax.

I gather the solution for the Ocean is to remove the Park car and replace the Renaissance coaches with HEP coaches (on the other side of a transition car). The two engines would face in opposite directions and then run around the train and pull it in the opposite direction without having to turn it around.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

If they want it, it could be successful, if done right. If they don't want it, it shouldn't be forced on them.

Where do you see that it isn't wanted?

Originally Posted by roger1818

Not sure if you know this, but a hydrogen fuel cell also generates electricity, so switching to hydrogen would still be electric (and yes I know that most trains in North America have diesel-electric locomotives).

I assume what you are trying to say by going "electric instead" is having overhead wires and there are a few problems with that. One of the big ones is distributing the massive amount of power needed to haul freight train over the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of kilometers of tracks would be a massive undertaking and would be cost prohibitive. The line loses for distributing all that power wouldn't be insignificant either.

I do understand that there are challenges with going electric and going hydrogen. I feel that without the infrastructure for hydrogen, if a switch is made, it would be cheaper to put in electric service. Most likely, it would be done 1 subdivision at a time outside of the Corridor.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Most people? Lets say they travelled on average to Toronto every 3 months or 4 times a year (seem high to me as while some may go more often some may almost never make the trip). If you also assume that a daily train would attract about 1% of the travelers (1/5 of the percentage of the much higher TOM service frequency). With a population of 164,689, that means each train would have 18 people on board. Now there are also those who live in Toronto who want to travel to Sudbury. I suspect that would a small minority of those making the trip, but even if you assume it is an equal number, that is still only 36 people on board.

How long the train is one thing. How full the train is, is another.

My point of the number of cars, is those were full. During the week, you would have those who need to go down for business or medical appointments. The weekend, that is people like myself, going down for a mini vacation. A daily to Sudbury wouldn't be a long train. The issue with the Canadian being not a daily is that it cuts out the opportunity for a weekend trip anywhere with it.

TBH, a train just to serve Sudbury is not where money should be spent. It already has train service. Service to Calgary and Regina should happen before a short Toronto - Sudbury daily is put in.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I gather the solution for the Ocean is to remove the Park car and replace the Renaissance coaches with HEP coaches (on the other side of a transition car). The two engines would face in opposite directions and then run around the train and pull it in the opposite direction without having to turn it around.

Sounds like a quick fix that should work.
Would that mean more cars potentially for thee Canadian?

[swimmer_spe]

Some may think that electrification in Canada would be too difficult, we could look to the USA, but instead, lets look at Russia. For example, the Trans Siberian Express is all electric and it is is over 9000km long and is electric.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Siberian_Railway

In sort, it can be done, even in remote areas.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Some may think that electrification in Canada would be too difficult, we could look to the USA, but instead, lets look at Russia. For example, the Trans Siberian Express is all electric and it is is over 9000km long and is electric.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Siberian_Railway

In sort, it can be done, even in remote areas.

Or China, which has had electric HSR to Harbin for over a decade, with speed limits of 350km/h in the summer and 250km/h in the winter.

[roger1818]

Do either Russia or China transport the same massive amount of freight using those electrified lines as we do in North America? Freight trains in North America can require up to 18,000 hp (over 13 MW) of locomotive power. Passing that much power through a centenary isn't going to be easy.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Some may think that electrification in Canada would be too difficult, we could look to the USA, but instead, lets look at Russia. For example, the Trans Siberian Express is all electric and it is is over 9000km long and is electric.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Siberian_Railway

In sort, it can be done, even in remote areas.

Of course it can be done. The question is should it be done, and the answer is no, because the railways in question are operated by private freight companies who know their business. There is nearly zero demand for long distance passenger rail in the prairies, so that deserves zero public investment.

[Dengler Avenue]

From the same article,

Electrification of the line, begun in 1929 and completed in 2002, allowed a doubling of train weights to 6,000 tonnes.

That was around the time when U.S.S.R. just became a thing. Both Former U.S.S.R. and China are communist countries. Go figure.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

From the same article,

That was around the time when U.S.S.R. just became a thing. Both Former U.S.S.R. and China are communist countries. Go figure.

So about 1/3 of the weight of big train in North America (according to this page, a train can weigh as much as 20,000 tons (18,000 tonnes) or sometimes even more). As I said, delivering that kind of power over those kinds of distances is a challenge.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Do either Russia or China transport the same massive amount of freight using those electrified lines as we do in North America?

Yes. The Datong–Qinhuangdao railway is electric (8-axle HXD1 and HXD2 locomotives; ~10MW sustained) and regularly has trains up to 3.2km (210 car - 20,000 ton) carrying coal. They average speeds of 70-80km/h with daily throughput of roughly 1 million tons (over 100 trains) on a pair of track; full load toward the city and empty return. It was electrified primarily as an efficiency measure.

I think some Quebec iron-ore routes run heavier trains but the Chinese setup could handle the CN/CP mainline traffic comfortably.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

So about 1/3 of the weight of big train in North America (according to this page, a train can weigh as much as 20,000 tons (18,000 tonnes) or sometimes even more). As I said, delivering that kind of power over those kinds of distances is a challenge.

Originally Posted by rbt

Yes. The Datong–Qinhuangdao railway is electric (8-axle HXD1 and HXD2 locomotives; ~10MW sustained) and regularly has trains up to 3.2km (210 car - 20,000 ton) carrying coal. They average speeds of 70-80km/h with daily throughput of roughly 1 million tons (over 100 trains) on a pair of track; full load toward the city and empty return. It was electrified primarily as an efficiency measure.

I think some Quebec iron-ore routes run heavier trains but the Chinese setup could handle the CN/CP mainline traffic comfortably.

Right now, CN/CP do not run a single engine. I am seeing at least 3 on most trains. That is because a single engine does not have the ability to pull it.

An ES44AC that is used with both CN and CP generates 3,280 kW each. 10MW is pretty damn close to the draw of 3 of these engines.

Again, right now, there is no demand to switch to electric. Mind you, if the federal government stepped in and told them they had to begin switching to Electric to meet climate change targets, then we would see it begin to happen in the easier places.

The Corridor trains could be all electric once HFR is fully built out. These trains would be slightly lighter, which means they might gain a few minutes from starting and stopping times.

I doubt I will ride an all electric train outside of the Corridor in my lifetime.

[swimmer_spe]

https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wir...-trains-future

... bye bye Canadian.

[milomilo]

Good

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

https://trn.trains.com/news/news-wir...-trains-future

... bye bye Canadian.

That's a bit premature still. Did you read the full report?

[esquire]

^ It's pretty clear which way things are headed. As the article says, the Canadian's equipment is nearing 70 years old and is in need of replacement, but there is no chance it's going to happen.

I love the Canadian, I've logged tens of thousands of kilometres riding it, but its time has come and gone. If it didn't have the federal government propping it up it probably would have stopped running 50 years ago.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It's pretty clear which way things are headed. As the article says, the Canadian's equipment is nearing 70 years old and is in need of replacement, but there is no chance it's going to happen.

I love the Canadian, I've logged tens of thousands of kilometres riding it, but its time has come and gone. If it didn't have the federal government propping it up it probably would have stopped running 50 years ago.

It is what happens when you focus all your money on one route. It seems like it is just a continuation of the 1990s cuts.

Don't worry, when everything is done, the only route will be Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal all on their own tracks.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Don't worry, when everything is done, the only route will be Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal all on their own tracks.

And that will be an improvement. No point continuing to throw away money on services we'd never think about implementing if they didn't exist already.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by rbt

Yes. The Datong–Qinhuangdao railway is electric (8-axle HXD1 and HXD2 locomotives; ~10MW sustained) and regularly has trains up to 3.2km (210 car - 20,000 ton) carrying coal. They average speeds of 70-80km/h with daily throughput of roughly 1 million tons (over 100 trains) on a pair of track; full load toward the city and empty return. It was electrified primarily as an efficiency measure.

I think some Quebec iron-ore routes run heavier trains but the Chinese setup could handle the CN/CP mainline traffic comfortably.

Thanks. Good to know.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It's pretty clear which way things are headed. As the article says, the Canadian's equipment is nearing 70 years old and is in need of replacement, but there is no chance it's going to happen.

I love the Canadian, I've logged tens of thousands of kilometres riding it, but its time has come and gone. If it didn't have the federal government propping it up it probably would have stopped running 50 years ago.

Interesting. What sections of the line did you end up using most?

The Canadian just was so inconvenient for any travel I might have planned. 3X/week isn't enough for a short-haul round trip of <800km, so I usually took a car/bus for those sorts of trips. Farther than that (say, >1000km) and an airplane was the ticket.

In one sense, it'll be missed as the options for travel across this country dwindle (RIP Greyhound). In another, trains and buses just are so slow when journeys get past 800 km compared to an airplane. They're not much cheaper to boot.

If flying was as expensive as it used to be, yeah, the train/bus makes more sense for long-haul. The downwards pressure of cost reduction has yielded more in airfare benefits than any other mode of transportation.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by milomilo

There is nearly zero demand for long distance passenger rail in the prairies, so that deserves zero public investment.

There is zero demand for passenger service on the prairies because there are zero trains, not the other way around. Have you ever seen and origin/destination demand study on rail passenger service on the prairies? Of course not, because there are none, other than between Calgary and Edmonton.

Scrap the Canadian and start with service, preferably daily between Winnipeg and Calgary with a connection in Regina to Saskatoon and Edmonton. Have service 4 or 5 times a week between Toronto and Winnipeg on the CP line through Sudbury and Thunder Bay. This would route trains where people live. If there are places that are considered remote we should let the provinces build roads to them until they are of a larger size to support service.

We need to do this in order to see if we can build greater demand. A latent demand exists but it is untapped.

Force the railways to give Via priority over freight trains and pay the railways for OTP or penalize them. We don't need HSR in the west, we need OTP regardless of the frequency.

Scrap the idea of a tourist train, except through the Rockies. In Europe thousands of tourists ride the trains which are not designed as tourist trains.Why should we pay for tourists and ignore regular users of the service? If tourists can't make a connection between trains, then they should look at it as an opportunity to spend a time exploring a city they may not have explored otherwise.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

There is zero demand for passenger service on the prairies because there are zero trains, not the other way around. Have you ever seen and origin/destination demand study on rail passenger service on the prairies? Of course not, because there are none, other than between Calgary and Edmonton.

Greyhound couldn't make bus service work on the Prairies. There have been competitors who are trying to do so now, but the long-term viability is still in question.

If coach service is questionable, why would a train somehow improve that situation?