The Butterfly | 178.6m | 57Fl | Completed

[whatnext]

[IMG]butterfly by bcborn, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]butterfly2 by bcborn, on Flickr[/IMG]
my photos

[bb1510]

Is it safe to assume the project that's offering a 700 psf in closing adjustments with an NDA is the butterfly?

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by bb1510

Is it safe to assume the project that's offering a 700 psf in closing adjustments with an NDA is the butterfly?

There was an article in the Globe & Mail about the increased popularity of NDAs in new condo sales:

Condo developers are offering big discounts in exchange for signing NDAs
ERICA ALINIPERSONAL ECONOMICS REPORTER
PUBLISHED JULY 2, 2026
UPDATED JULY 4, 2026
FOR SUBSCRIBERS

Some developers are offering buyers of new condos steep discounts, provided they sign confidentiality clauses, as the sector continues to struggle with sluggish sales and mounting inventory.

Anthony Scilipoti, president and chief executive officer of Veritas Investment Research, a Toronto-based equity research firm, said that during a secret shopper exercise in Vancouver earlier this year, he was offered this kind of a discount on a new condo. Subject to signing a non-disclosure agreement, he was promised savings of around $700 a square foot.…

… In a report for clients about this year’s secret-shopping research, Veritas said prospective buyers should also be aware that market listings for new condo buildings do not always reflect the full inventory of units available for sale.

“What we have now is a market obscured by shadow prices and a shadow inventory,” the report warned.….

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/investin...s-discount-sales-developers-real-estate/

[kikin]

Originally Posted by bb1510

Is it safe to assume the project that's offering a 700 psf in closing adjustments with an NDA is the butterfly?

what would that put the price to then?

[bb1510]

Originally Posted by kikin

what would that put the price to then?

I don't know, but I just know that for every sale 1500 psf is just to service the loans on the project right now, excluding hard and soft costs

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by bb1510

I don't know, but I just know that for every sale 1500 psf is just to service the loans on the project right now, excluding hard and soft costs

I was looking on realtor Mike Stewart’s webpage and his stats show the average sale price in the building at $1,073 sq/ft. Longest days on the market is 526.

https://www.mikestewart.ca/idx/listing.r3125671-702-1033-nelson-street-vancouver-v6e-0e5.108805648/

[bb1510]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I was looking on realtor Mike Stewart’s webpage and his stats show the average sale price in the building at $1,073 sq/ft. Longest days on the market is 526.

https://www.mikestewart.ca/idx/listing.r3125671-702-1033-nelson-street-vancouver-v6e-0e5.108805648/

Yes, those are just resale units. I'm referring to developer units and it was insider info from a commercial lender.

Basically, if a unit sells for 2600 psf from the developer, 1500 psf of that 2600 psf is just to service the loan, excluding any hard and soft costs.

Westbank took out a secondary mortgage from the Pacific Alliance Group I believe in 2024 on the Butterfly and it's also registered on all their Japanese developments too. The max default interest in the docs state prime plus 40%, but that's the max rate and probably not the actual interest, but I assume it's very high.

PAG is also the fund that successfully sued the fugitive Miles Guo in the US for default

[kikin]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I was looking on realtor Mike Stewart’s webpage and his stats show the average sale price in the building at $1,073 sq/ft. Longest days on the market is 526.

https://www.mikestewart.ca/idx/listing.r3125671-702-1033-nelson-street-vancouver-v6e-0e5.108805648/

that is a crazy low price, that building must be cursed

[AlessioSBT]

Not only that.
I know there are a lot of amenities but the strata fee is already higher than average and this is the period where usually they are artificially low to attract buyers.

In 10 years a 700sqft 2 bd will easily go over 1000/month at this rate.

[whatnext]

This is one project that should definitely have been a combo hotel/condo tower. It’s in a much better location than some of the new proposals, the iconic architecture would have made it instantly recognizable and aided marketing. Given Westbank’s experience with the Shanghai-La I am really surprised they didn’t go that route. It would have cushioned them from what’s happening now.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by whatnext

This is one project that should definitely have been a combo hotel/condo tower. It’s in a much better location than some of the new proposals, the iconic architecture would have made it instantly recognizable and aided marketing. Given Westbank’s experience with the Shanghai-La I am really surprised they didn’t go that route. It would have cushioned them from what’s happening now.

Given that they developed both the (former) Shangri-La and the Fairmont Pacific Rim, they presumably considered that possibility, but the economics of a hotel/condo tower could have been worse. They needed to generate enough profit to cover the cost of the seismic rebuild of the church premises (($25m+) and the social housing building for the church. The decision to build a luxury tower made sense at the time they went ahead, but circumstances changed. A hotel in the base of the tower would almost certainly have been valued at less than the apartments that have been built.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Given that they developed both the (former) Shangri-La and the Fairmont Pacific Rim, they presumably considered that possibility, but the economics of a hotel/condo tower could have been worse. They needed to generate enough profit to cover the cost of the seismic rebuild of the church premises (($25m+) and the social housing building for the church. The decision to build a luxury tower made sense at the time they went ahead, but circumstances changed. A hotel in the base of the tower would almost certainly have been valued at less than the apartments that have been built.

Of course hindsight is 20/20 but a hotel would have helped spread out the risk. From what I can tell going back construction didn’t start until 2018 and by then the clampdown on foreign buyers was two years old. They should have seen the result coming.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Of course hindsight is 20/20 but a hotel would have helped spread out the risk. From what I can tell going back construction didn’t start until 2018 and by then the clampdown on foreign buyers was two years old. They should have seen the result coming.

But the clampdown on foreign buyers isn't what's (mainly) responsible for the current market slowdown.

It's a part of it, .....sure,....but the effects might seem a tad overblown.

As far back as then or 2019 it became clear that the remedies that were being instituted at the time like foreign buyers clampdown and the empty homes tax were having impact but more on the minimal side rather than the paradigm-shifting change many hoped for.

The current market slowdown has more to do with what came after both in the immediate aftermath (specifically the pandemic and lockdown, and the global inflation crisis that followed), as well as the more recent events that have exacerbated it and accelerated the slowdown (pun not intended).
Specifically the impact of this most recent tariff war and the worsening of Inflation, and the spike in interest rates.

I mean,...sure the overall market was already over-leveraged and over-valued by that point and due for a correction, but back in 2018, nobody could have foreseen any of the things I've mentioned happening since then - starting with the pandemic in '20 and everything that's followed since,...right up until a 2nd Trump term 4 years later, and all that that's entailed as far as Canada-US trade relations are concerned (certainly not THAT given what 2020 was) - and all the after-effects that have followed.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

But the clampdown on foreign buyers isn't what's (mainly) responsible for the current market slowdown.

It's a part of it, .....sure,....but the effects might seem a tad overblown.

As far back as then or 2019 it became clear that the remedies that were being instituted at the time like foreign buyers clampdown and the empty homes tax were having impact but more on the minimal side rather than the paradigm-shifting change many hoped for.

The current market slowdown has more to do with what came after both in the immediate aftermath (specifically the pandemic and lockdown, and the global inflation crisis that followed), as well as the more recent events that have exacerbated it and accelerated the slowdown (pun not intended).
Specifically the impact of this most recent tariff war and the worsening of Inflation, and the spike in interest rates.

I mean,...sure the overall market was already over-leveraged and over-valued by that point and due for a correction, but back in 2018, nobody could have foreseen any of the things I've mentioned happening since then - starting with the pandemic in '20 and everything that's followed since,...right up until a 2nd Trump term 4 years later, and all that that's entailed as far as Canada-US trade relations are concerned (certainly not THAT given what 2020 was) - and all the after-effects that have followed.

Perhaps but I’d argue The Butterfly and Westbank projects in general were susceptible the most to a foreign buyers clampdown. None of us have seen sales figures for Oakridge….