The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[logan5]

Batteries rely on a chemical reaction to produce electricity, while a capacitor is basically a sponge that soaks up electricity.

[Nouvellecosse]

Batteries don't actually produce electricity either, they also soak it up like a sponge.

[logan5]

Care to expand on that?

[Nouvellecosse]

Batteries have to be charged in order for them to provide energy. They don't produce the electricity, they only hold it until it's ready to be used - just like a capacitor does. They just do it using different methods. That's why battery powered vehicles constantly need to be plugged recharged.

[logan5]

When the battery is charged, the chemical reaction is reversed. A capacitor is a storage bin. This is why a capacitor has the advantage of recharging much faster or discharging much faster.
http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2009/05/08/what-is-the-difference-between-a-battery-and-a-capacitor/

[Rotax]

Originally Posted by logan5

A few questions regarding the battery bus...

Does this mean that the full cost of the bus is 3 million? The $890 000 seems inexpensive for a battery powered bus. I think a trolley bus in Vancouver costs around a million dollars.

No. The DesignLine bid was 890 000$ overall, training included. The provincial government paid 75% of the 890 000$.

It's not DesignLine's first electric bus and they also manufacture series hybrid buses with the same frame and batteries, so the engineering costs have already been partly "paid" by previous orders.

[eemy]

Are capacitors able to match the energy density of Li Ion batteries yet? I thought that they were still considerably lower in that regard.

[West_aust]

Taken from yahoo answer (take it for what it's worth) but sums up why we use battery instead of capacitors in everyday usage

The main differences are in capacity and peak-current capability.

Capacitors can discharge very, very quickly (they have a very low internal resistance) - but, they can't store as much at a time.

Batteries take longer to discharge (low, though considerably higher than a cap, internal resistance) - but they can store much more at any given time.

Physically, batteries rely on the chemical compositions of metals and the acids in between to determine the capacity, resistance, voltage, and recharge-ability. This limits the possible voltages and the like to predetermined values.

Capacitors (in general) do not rely on these chemical processes and metal compositions, but rather the electric fields between metal plates. This lets them be charged to an arbitrary voltage; but, because the energy is in the field and not in the metals/acids themselves, they are much MUCH bigger for the same energy, and therefore are nearly always hold considerably less due to size constraints.

For instance, a 1 Farad 12V capacitor - which is about the size of 30 D-Cell batteries - does not contain as much pure energy as a 9-Volt battery. However, it can discharge that energy in a millionth the time, if not less.

Source: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100102220454AAJwe7b

[nname]

Originally Posted by Rotax

No. The DesignLine bid was 890 000$ overall, training included. The provincial government paid 75% of the 890 000$.

It's not DesignLine's first electric bus and they also manufacture series hybrid buses with the same frame and batteries, so the engineering costs have already been partly "paid" by previous orders.

Not sure about the electric ones, but those hybrids doesn't seems to be doing too well.. Seems like only 24 of the 117 coaches built in 2008-2010 has been delivered (rest of the order were cancelled), and 19 of the 24 are already retired?

[logan5]

Originally Posted by West_aust

Taken from yahoo answer (take it for what it's worth) but sums up why we use battery instead of capacitors in everyday usage

Capacitors wouldn't be practical for our phones and laptops, but for a bus route, they would work.

Excerpt from a Wikipedia article on capacitor bus...

The buses have very predictable routes and need to stop regularly every 3 miles (4.8 km) or less, allowing quick recharging at charging stations at bus stops. A collector on the top of the bus rises a few feet and touches an overhead charging line at the stop; within a couple of minutes the ultracapacitor banks stored under the bus seats are fully charged. The buses can also capture energy from braking, and the company says that recharging stations can be equipped with solar panels. A third generation of the product, which will give 20 miles (32 km) of range per charge or better is planned.[1]
Sinautec estimates that one of its buses has one-tenth the energy cost of a diesel bus and can achieve lifetime fuel savings of $200,000. The buses use 40% less electricity even than an electric trolley bus, mainly because they are lighter[citation needed] and have the regenerative braking benefits. The ultracapacitors are made of activated carbon and have an energy density of six watt-hours per kilogram (for comparison a high-performance lithium-ion battery can achieve 200 watt-hours per kilogram, but the ultracapacitor bus is about 40% cheaper than a lithium-ion battery bus and far more reliable).

[nname]

The buses have very predictable routes and need to stop regularly every 3 miles (4.8 km) or less, allowing quick recharging at charging stations at bus stops. A collector on the top of the bus rises a few feet and touches an overhead charging line at the stop; within a couple of minutes the ultracapacitor banks stored under the bus seats are fully charged.

Well, that's an issue... There are a lot of difference in term of bus service between China and Canada... In China:

1. Stops are 1-2km apart, instead of 200-400m here.

2. Most bus would have to stop at all stops regardless of any passenger want to get on/off. There's no bell or cord thing that you have to pull when you want to get off. [One of my friend from China didn't know that we have to pull this thing when he first arrived here, so he rode all the way to the terminus and wondering why the bus doesn't have stops]

3. There is alot of people getting on/off at each stop so stop time is long.

So the technology at current stage isn't that suitable for here. A stop every 4.8km isn't guaranteed - even for inner-city bus routes, there are times (ie. late night) where there are very little on/off activity along some sections of the route. And I also doubt that there are many stops here where the bus have to stop a couple of minutes to load/unload passengers...

[logan5]

Originally Posted by nname

Well, that's an issue... There are a lot of difference in term of bus service between China and Canada... In China:

1. Stops are 1-2km apart, instead of 200-400m here.

2. Most bus would have to stop at all stops regardless of any passenger want to get on/off. There's no bell or cord thing that you have to pull when you want to get off. [One of my friend from China didn't know that we have to pull this thing when he first arrived here, so he rode all the way to the terminus and wondering why the bus doesn't have stops]

3. There is alot of people getting on/off at each stop so stop time is long.

So the technology at current stage isn't that suitable for here. A stop every 4.8km isn't guaranteed - even for inner-city bus routes, there are times (ie. late night) where there are very little on/off activity along some sections of the route. And I also doubt that there are many stops here where the bus have to stop a couple of minutes to load/unload passengers...

Wouldn't more frequent stops in Vancouver be more advantageous to a capabus? Instead of charging for a couple of minutes every 4 km, you could charge for 30 seconds every km at major intersections where a bus is sure to stop. Even late at night, buses often pause for at least 30 seconds (usually longer) at major intersections as to not get ahead of schedule.

Also, the range for the capabus is 8.8 km, without air conditioning. The Main St route is around 10 km.

[Rotax]

Originally Posted by nname

Not sure about the electric ones, but those hybrids doesn't seems to be doing too well.. Seems like only 24 of the 117 coaches built in 2008-2010 has been delivered (rest of the order were cancelled), and 19 of the 24 are already retired?

Indeed, the first DesignLine hybrid buses had many problems regarding their gas turbine and the diesel fuel used.

The all electric Eco-Smart shouldn't have this problem.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Wooster

For those interested, here's the draft of Calgary's $8.7 Billion 30 year Rapid Transit Plan. It's part of a comprehensive strategic plan for Calgary Transit - The RouteAhead.

RouteAhead is not only a network plan - it also looks at customer service, fiscal sustainability, governance and organization of and service delivery objectives of Calgary Transit. I sit on the project's steering commitee representing the Mayor's Office and am doing a bit of writing for a section on the plan, which is kind of fun.

www.routeahead.ca

Here's the draft proposed RouteAhead Network Plan. The language might be a bit confusing. "Transitway" is fully separated busways (with potential conversion to LRT). And "BRT" in Calgary essentially means frequent, limited stop express with some dedicated lanes, signal priority etc. There is one line (Westbrook to U of C and West Campus) that may end up being an aerial tram or gondola because of the geography - it's listed as "other" at this point.





Plan willl be finalized in December. Timing of mode progression and building LRTs is all predicated on funding. If a funding deal can be struck with our Provincial Government in City Charter negotiations, we may be able to move on the two next LRT lines sooner.

I can't believe how low their priority is for the 8th Avenue Subway. By that timeline it looks like it won't be built until the mid 2030s... we already need it now... by 2020 it will be a necessity. The backups caused by idiots getting hit already cause delays on a more than weekly basis... I'd even go as far as to say daily basis.

[ssiguy]

Is the current Calgary Transitway a real transitway or just a frequent bus with fewer stops? Does it have it's own roadway or HOV? Does it use articulates and does it have POP?

Thanks.

[Chadillaccc]

I don't know what POP is... but no, our BRT doesn't have HOV or its own road, some bus routes do have bus only lanes along Crowchild Trail though. The BRT Uses articulated buses and less frequent stops.

What you were reading is a timeline, and as stated in the timeline, no transitways exist in Calgary yet. The council is voting on the path of the Southeast Transitway (the precursor to the SE LRT) this month I believe.




However, Center Street is only 4 lanes wide at its best, including street parking I believe. There's no way that the transit way will ever have dedicated lanes up centre street. The only way to build a meaningful North Central LRT will be to bury it... unless the city decides to put it beside the tracks, hundreds of meters from any residential areas and the only access to it would be from the west. So they will probably bury it... hopefully?

[nname]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

I don't know what POP is... but no, our BRT doesn't have HOV or its own road, some bus routes do have bus only lanes along Crowchild Trail though. The BRT Uses articulated buses and less frequent stops.

And even that definition is slowly eroding, I believe some of the BRT routes now use standard 40ft buses, and some even run with shuttles during off-peak?

That's just like the B-Lines in Vancouver... They are supposed to be a limited stop service, but the 97 B-Line now somehow have to stop at every single stops in two segments.. and they are planning to add more!

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

However, Center Street is only 4 lanes wide at its best, including street parking I believe. There's no way that the transit way will ever have dedicated lanes up centre street. The only way to build a meaningful North Central LRT will be to bury it... unless the city decides to put it beside the tracks, hundreds of meters from any residential areas and the only access to it would be from the west. So they will probably bury it... hopefully?

And that's exactly like Broadway in Vancouver, and somehow people here still believe that they can just put an LRT in the middle of the road and it can run like Calgary's C-Train...

[Chadillaccc]

I don't think many people in Vancouver are delusional enough to think that an LRT down broadway is feasible. Most of the population supports underground skytrain technology, especially after seeing the success of the Canada Line. The whole cut and cover thing really sucks but the benefits of having the skytrain will be pretty pronounced..

[Nouvellecosse]

Cut and cover really isn't all that much cheaper than boring nowadays anyway, with the improved TBM technology. The small difference in price is often less than the value of the potential disruption to the economy in dense busy areas.

[Chadillaccc]

Yeah... I'm not really sure why they didn't use TBMs at least for the commercial area of Granville... they used them to get under False Creek so why not just go an extra couple kilometers and save everyone the torment, then cut and cover the rest. Hopefully because Broadway is basically one long commercial strip, they will seriously consider boring machines.