Tempe Development Thread

[ciweiss]

^^^^
Don B. That is for the Tempe Gateway project. I also saw a crane over at Hayden Ferry Lakeside as well but it is no longer there. Perhaps just using it for temporary storage. They are really going to town over at the US Airways (Tempe Gateway) project. From the article below it sounds like a lot of the retail that is going to be on the bottom is already spoken for. That is good. We don't need any more vacant buildings. I keep hoping that the Coffee plantation area gets new tenants as well. I'm sure having Tempe Marketplace nearby will be a lot of competition.

http://tempe.gov/comdev/WeeklyUpdate/03JUL08.pdf

[tempedude]

Originally Posted by Don B.

Was in town yesterday from Prescott (man, it's fraking hot down here) to look at the new place (inspection) and move my photos to a new spot in a gallery on Roosevelt, and we drove by downtown Tempe on the 202.

There's a new and rather large crane just west of Mill around Rio Salado or a little further south. Any clue what this crane is for? It almost looked like it was on the site of the Monti's project. It might also be for US Airways Phase II, but it seemed very tall for a short building.

Downtown Tempe is looking very cool. Pity it's not adjacent to downtown Phoenix.

--don

That crane is for the Tempe Gateway development. (U.S. Airways Phase II - office space and retail) The crane is just south of Monti's and is on the property right next to the U.S. Airways building and the 3rd Ave. Metro rail station.

Here is a link for more detail on Tempe Gateway.

edit: oops sort of a double post...but, I'm sure Don is talking about the crane at Gateway

[PC2001]

Do you guys think Centerpoint is not a good investment now? I've reserved a unit and put 5% down. I dunno if I should just lose that money or lose more in the end. Hope to get some input on this. They have kept moving the closing dates and they're really not dropping their prices.

[ciweiss]

PC2001 - that is one tuff question. I am no expert whatsoever but I'll let you know my thoughts. It would be tuff to pick up a place and find out in a couple years that it dropped 100-200K. It would also be tuff to cancel and then it goes up 100-200K in the next few years. Another option might be to cancel where you may lose 20K and if the price were to drop 100K then buy it then. Or from someone else whom had to unload it. With that being said I bought my place in Hayden Square a year ago. It seems prices might have come down but it is tuff to guage 10-15%??? Hard to tell. It would blow if it goes down 25-35%. At the same time I love living here. Not having to drive places for entertainment. Take for instance today for the 4th I will walk 300 yards to enjoy the show where as some people are going to be driving a half hour. Plus I don't have to park. I just saw the lightrail train roll by 5 minutes ago. That is cool. I think I would take a lot into consideration and thought. Is this near your place of work? What if you lose your job or have to get one elsewhere? Could you float the payments for a while. Do you like the area enough that if the price dropped 100K that you would not care. I think if I were you I would consult a lot of experts and see what your options are. If the economy continues to faulter there might not be a whole lot of demand for high end condos. You could always pick up another condo that has already taken a hit. Or the investor had to bail because they could not afford it and now it is going for 100K less. You might not be in a skyscraper but may be a block or two away. So to recap I have no freakin idea but wish you the best of luck in your decision. Dtown living is definitly cool and Tempe does seem to be one of the coolest areas of the valley. I'm looking forward to other peoples thoughts/opinions.

[Gutter Tech]

Originally Posted by ciweiss

^^^^
Don B. That is for the Tempe Gateway project. I also saw a crane over at Hayden Ferry Lakeside as well but it is no longer there. Perhaps just using it for temporary storage. They are really going to town over at the US Airways (Tempe Gateway) project. From the article below it sounds like a lot of the retail that is going to be on the bottom is already spoken for. That is good. We don't need any more vacant buildings. I keep hoping that the Coffee plantation area gets new tenants as well. I'm sure having Tempe Marketplace nearby will be a lot of competition.

http://tempe.gov/comdev/WeeklyUpdate/03JUL08.pdf

The crane at Hayden Ferry was to install some signage, nothing special.

[PhxSprawler]

Originally Posted by PC2001

Do you guys think Centerpoint is not a good investment now? I've reserved a unit and put 5% down. I dunno if I should just lose that money or lose more in the end. Hope to get some input on this. They have kept moving the closing dates and they're really not dropping their prices.

I agree with Ciweiss that it is a very tough decision. They should be dropping prices, especially if sales are continuing to be low. I am sure they have gone down from their original sales dates a couple of years ago. Here are my two cents:

Wait until the last possible minute to back out (if you are going to). Check the sales price at that time as if you were a new potential tenant (lie, cheat, or get a friend to give the appearance of a new customer). If the price has declined or incentives are in excess of 5%, demand similar incentives/rebates or walk out and re-purchase. You have to do what is right for you.

For a long-term investment, I couldn't think of a better place than Centerpoint or Tempe in general, but I completely understand your skepticism in this market! I own multiple properties that are falling in value and tying up any potential to take advantage of cheap real estate.

[Azndragon837]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

There is a new project proposed by Irgens Development Partners wonder where the hell this is suppose to go?!? As quoted in the publication:

"979 Playa del Norte (Tempe) will be a 100,000 SF, Class A office building located just southeast of the Loop 202 and Scottsdale Rd interchange and adjacent to Tempe Town Lake. Groundbreaking is slated for 2009."

The image is kinda small to scan but it looks cool, 4 stories of office over a 4 story parking garage? This just came out of nowhere and Im not sure where they are planning to build this since ALOFT is almost topped out and ONYX is suppose to break ground soon.

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

Here is a story I found about it, still not sure where in that site it's going?

http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2008/04/21/daily60.html?ana=from_loop

Sorry with the late reponse (see Page 93 of this thread). I did some research, and I found out where the new 8-story office building will be located:

Lot 2 of the Playa 6 Subdivision (which was a replat of the original Playa Del Norte Subdivision), is the final lot where the office building will be located. It's located just north of Grigio and east of Aloft, adjacent to the future site of a City of Tempe park.

The original Playa Del Norte Subdivision, platted in 2004:

^Lot 6 is the lot where Aloft and the new office building will go.


The Playa 6 Subdivision, done in late 2007, is a replat of the original Plaza Del Norte. It basically became its own subdivision from the original Playa Del Norte Lot 6:

^The Business Journal article stated that the lot will be 1.75 acres, and the map above basically confirms that (see Lot 2).

Finally, I made a map where the development will be located:


The "unknown seller" of the land (from the article) is Triyar Hospitality, owner of the land beneath the new W Hotel Scottsdale and several Downtown Scottsdale properties in and around the club district and Fashion Square. This development will finally complete the Playa Del Norte portion of Tempe Town Lake (minus the future site of a new city park). I am amazed how fast this large piece of land developed in such a short amount of time. I remember seeing the plans for In-n-Out when I was still an intern back with Tempe in 2004. Pretty awesome.

-Andrew

[Don B.]

^ Nice map.

--don

[DracoCaifan]

Is it the Onyx tower under construction? or not?

[tempedude]

Originally Posted by DracoCaifan

Is it the Onyx tower under construction? or not?

It is not at the moment. Rumor is that Onyx is supposed to break ground sometime this summer. Actually, that rumor came from a press release, but I don't know where that is right now. Sounds like this thing is a go...crazy as that seems in this market.

[Classical in Phoenix]

Great map. I would love it if the Onyx tower breaks ground this summer, but this market is so tough right now.

[Azndragon837]

Onyx will grace the Tempe skyline nicely, but I worry about it breaking ground. Their sales office is open next to Jersey Mike's Subs in the 2-story copper building south of In-n-Out. Every time I go to In-n-Out, I have always wondered what tenant occupied that one suite with their front windows filled with an eerie blue light. It's Onyx's sales office.

Thanks for the map compliments. SnagIt does wonders!

-Andrew

[UTAZLoVer]

Originally Posted by PC2001

Do you guys think Centerpoint is not a good investment now? I've reserved a unit and put 5% down. I dunno if I should just lose that money or lose more in the end. Hope to get some input on this. They have kept moving the closing dates and they're really not dropping their prices.

Well this really is a tough question....

As far as the closing dates moving goes, I don't really think that's much of a big deal. I remember when my parent's house was being built - it was supposed to take eight months. Then we heard nine, then ten....finally it was finished. Now keep in mind - those delays were on a simple, suburban, two-story wood-framed house!! Now jettison forward to this huge skyscraper - I think they're actually doing pretty well with a 4-6 month delay on 22 to 30 stories considering the 2 month delay on a 2-story house.

Now to the prices.... I think any price-dropping would probably occur after closing on all the units they currently have in the works. It's just business - they'd be stupid to drop them before, or else everyone under contract would demand the lower price. That said, I also think that Avenue is hoping that they won't even have to lower prices once C-Point opens on the hopes that sales will pick up when buyers can:

*See the finished units vs. renderings.
*See the finished amenities and be wowed and awed.
*Know the product is completed and readily available for move-in versus waiting years if choosing to buy with a competing highrise.

Whether or not that will actually happen...only time will tell. But they are certainly going to hold out for it - maybe you should too. Maybe not, the decision is yours.

I do know, though, that if you kept it you would have a pretty killer pad in the first true Tempe highrise and that's pretty sweet. I know I'd want one.

In terms of investment value....

In the short term (5 years or less) it's a really grey area on whether you would see a return on your investment. But if you're in it for the long term, like most real estate investments should be made for anyways, I'm confident that Centerpoint would be a good investment - this down market will only last so long and it is a good product. And it's one of the few that will actually get finished in the near future, as we are seeing today.

Hope that helps!!

[loftlovr]

PhxSprawler had some great advice as to your dilemma.
Send in a spy to check on new prices and if you are paying a dime more hold their feet to the fire. They don't want your 5% earnest money- they want you to close.
Ask for any concessions you can get.

I dig Centerpoint a lot but I would be worried that prices would drop over the next few years. No doubt it will be a stellar development, but does Downtown Tempe command $500 psf +?

Losing 5% now would be easier than losing 20% over the next two years....

[burg72]

Originally Posted by UTAZLoVer

Well this really is a tough question....

As far as the closing dates moving goes, I don't really think that's much of a big deal. I remember when my parent's house was being built - it was supposed to take eight months. Then we heard nine, then ten....finally it was finished. Now keep in mind - those delays were on a simple, suburban, two-story wood-framed house!! Now jettison forward to this huge skyscraper - I think they're actually doing pretty well with a 4-6 month delay on 22 to 30 stories considering the 2 month delay on a 2-story house.

Now to the prices.... I think any price-dropping would probably occur after closing on all the units they currently have in the works. It's just business - they'd be stupid to drop them before, or else everyone under contract would demand the lower price. That said, I also think that Avenue is hoping that they won't even have to lower prices once C-Point opens on the hopes that sales will pick up when buyers can:

*See the finished units vs. renderings.
*See the finished amenities and be wowed and awed.
*Know the product is completed and readily available for move-in versus waiting years if choosing to buy with a competing highrise.

Whether or not that will actually happen...only time will tell. But they are certainly going to hold out for it - maybe you should too. Maybe not, the decision is yours.

I do know, though, that if you kept it you would have a pretty killer pad in the first true Tempe highrise and that's pretty sweet. I know I'd want one.

In terms of investment value....

In the short term (5 years or less) it's a really grey area on whether you would see a return on your investment. But if you're in it for the long term, like most real estate investments should be made for anyways, I'm confident that Centerpoint would be a good investment - this down market will only last so long and it is a good product. And it's one of the few that will actually get finished in the near future, as we are seeing today.

Hope that helps!!

I worked on the centerpoint project since Nov. of 06. As of right now, many trades have pulled off the job due to non payment. There are millions owed to the trades and right now and nobody knows for sure we the trades will be back. Who knows when the end date will come. Not much work is being done right now.

[Jsmscaleros]

Huh. I understand, this being skyscraperpage.com that most of you are fans of new high-rises coming to Tempe, but I'm not so sold on Onyx or others like it in Tempe. All of the new towers seem to be targeting identical demographics (honestly, wealthy, mostly white people), and with it we've seen the gradual gentrification of Mill Ave., which has really been brand-washing more than anything.

What has really come to Tempe in the last few years? In-n-Out, Starbucks, Tempe Marketplace (with mostly every big-box brand in the country represented), Borders, at least 5 Walgreens/CVS stores, P.F. Chang's, Bamboo Club, blah blah blah... you get the point. This is "X" American City, nothing special or even worth mentioning in my book, and it's come at the expense of spreading out great local businesses to hidden nooks and crannies all throughout Tempe that we now must waste more gas to get to.

These new condominium towers cater to these kinds of bland businesses, are being built extremely fast in a terrible market, ignore socio-economic diversity (which really makes urban spaces great in my opinion), and just add interesting things to look at without much real interest.

So, are all of these projects really what's best for Tempe? Putting all of your eggs in one basket is never a good idea, and Tempe seems to have decided that it wants only a specific kind of person moving to these new buildings.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by loftlovr

PhxSprawler had some great advice as to your dilemma.
Send in a spy to check on new prices and if you are paying a dime more hold their feet to the fire. They don't want your 5% earnest money- they want you to close.
Ask for any concessions you can get.

I dig Centerpoint a lot but I would be worried that prices would drop over the next few years. No doubt it will be a stellar development, but does Downtown Tempe command $500 psf +?

Losing 5% now would be easier than losing 20% over the next two years....

Losing 5% is cold hard cash that you don't get squat from--that's a loss. "Losing" 20% on paper only becomes real if you sell. If you do intend on selling after 2 years, yeah, I'd walk away from the deal and never invest on something like this in such a short time frame again.

There are extreme risks you could take in the luxury submarket itself that might prove all the naysayers wrong, but that's probably not why you got into this to begin with.

I don't know a whole lot about investment but one philosophy thats stuck around has been declining prices means things are cheaper and more attractive to buy. If I were you and had the credit, etc. I'd reap the benefits of this decline and just get other units cheaper and cheaper until they're not anymore. Whole lot easier to rent them out when they're an elevator ride away.

[ciweiss]

Originally Posted by Jsmscaleros

Huh. I understand, this being skyscraperpage.com that most of you are fans of new high-rises coming to Tempe, but I'm not so sold on Onyx or others like it in Tempe. All of the new towers seem to be targeting identical demographics (honestly, wealthy, mostly white people), and with it we've seen the gradual gentrification of Mill Ave., which has really been brand-washing more than anything.

What has really come to Tempe in the last few years? In-n-Out, Starbucks, Tempe Marketplace (with mostly every big-box brand in the country represented), Borders, at least 5 Walgreens/CVS stores, P.F. Chang's, Bamboo Club, blah blah blah... you get the point. This is "X" American City, nothing special or even worth mentioning in my book, and it's come at the expense of spreading out great local businesses to hidden nooks and crannies all throughout Tempe that we now must waste more gas to get to.

These new condominium towers cater to these kinds of bland businesses, are being built extremely fast in a terrible market, ignore socio-economic diversity (which really makes urban spaces great in my opinion), and just add interesting things to look at without much real interest.

So, are all of these projects really what's best for Tempe? Putting all of your eggs in one basket is never a good idea, and Tempe seems to have decided that it wants only a specific kind of person moving to these new buildings.

You do make some good points. I do think they want to transform Tempe downtown into a semi high end place. I don't think this is really the city's doing but more the developers. When everything went sky high a few years ago the developers were realizing people were paying (and investing) 400k- 1.5 mil for a place they just start building like crazy. Problem is only a small percentage of people (and investors) could sustain that. At the same time I think most downtowns are highend. Even if they don't all consist of skyscrapers they are typically highend (eg. San Diego, Seattle, San Fran). It would have been nice to have some developments that the middle or middle lower class could have afforded by that is unlikely in the DT area. The best you could probably do is buy a nearby house nearby and fix it up.

That is scary that they have stopped work on Centerpoint. I walked by there yesturday and it seems strange. Like it is sitting in limbo. I hope they figure out a way to complete it. Like I said - finish building 1 for condos and get a highend hotel to buy building 2. Put a bunch of conference rooms (which DT needs) on the bottom floors. Do we need more vacant retail in DT mill. Which is what they were planning for the ground floor. Not as many people shop there since Tempe Marketplace opened. The city should have figured this out. Hopefully the economy has not hit the returning students or some of the local restuarants/bars/stores are going to take a hit as well.

[tempedude]

Tempe is slowly driving away the college crowd (like me) from its downtown. The city leaders seem to have forgotten that it was the students who largely made DT Tempe vibrant in the first place. The students created the vibe and then others from around Phoenix came to partake and add to the atmosphere going on up and down Mill Ave., especially on the weekends.

I just don't think Mill has the same feel to it anymore. (Unless there is some kind of special event going on). Gone are the little clubs etc that drew the students. Now its just basiclly a row of restaurants and and a few shops. Sure its great if all you want is to grab a bite to eat and roam around the stores for a little while. I mean even the movie theater is gone and moved over to Tempe Marketplace, which is just another generic suburban style open-air mall in my opinion.

Even Club Rio, which was by the lake on Rural Rd. (lastly known as the Arizona Beach Club before it closed) is gone. It too, got torn down in anticipation of high rise multi-use development lakeside. Tempe is sterilizing its environment. Now, a large portion of the college crowd goes to Scottsdale for nightlife.

It is surprising to see Centerpoint sitting there with not much going on right now. No need to worry though, it will recover. As will many other projects in the pipeline for downtown Tempe.

DT Tempe is still one of the best places in the valley to hangout. But, its in transition, where it will be full of young upscale urban professionals. Thats fine, but to have a true urban feel to it, the hobos and the college crowd need to be in the mix.

[vertex]

^^^Agreed, although I think some of the college crowd (along with the businesses that cater to them) are starting to move south and east, along Apache, thanks in most part to the thousands of dorms, apartments and condos springing up.

On a related note, has anybody noticed the population increases for Tempe since 2000? Not impressive when you compare it to Gilbert, but pretty decent for the state's only landlocked city.

To see the city's numbers grow 10% in the last 7+ years, based entirely on infill and density, is worth noting.

Tempe city
2007 / 174,091
2006 / 170,188
2005 / 167,005
2004 / 165,223
2003 / 162,383
2002 / 161,705
2001 / 160,143
2000 / 158,945