[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by Dartboy

Anyway Ramia is being reported now as saying the land could sit vacant if He doesnt get his way. secondly he is also saying that Plans B and C without the convention center would obviously be much smaller but would make more money and that the current proposal makes the least amount of money

What the hell ARE 'Plans B and C'? He keeps referencing them but I don't think I've ever encountered any information as to what those backups would actually be.

[beyeas]

He described that in the presentation apparently yesterday.
Basically it partly surround the height limits that would come into play if this doesn't go forward as the CC, which would be from 6-9 stories on the two blocks.

Option B is a smaller hotel (like 100 rooms rather than 400) and a smaller office building, and would likely be a few years off before starting.

Option C is to do it as a collection of smaller buildings (up to 5 buildings) built over a 10-15 year time period.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Dartboy

secondly he is also saying that Plans B and C without the convention center would obviously be much smaller but would make more money and that the current proposal makes the least amount of money.

Frankly I am calling hogwash on that. I dont like the way he has started to change his angle in the media. When he first came out he was playing it smart. Now he is not.

I believe him that any other options would be on a much much longer time scale, and that he would make more money "potentially". I think that is totally true.

What it does gloss over though is that the reason why he would be ok with making "less" money is that this project also likely carries with it less overall risk, and will probably easier to get financed.

[Dmajackson]

The Committee of the Whole is on now and the links to the reports presented today are available on the HRM Regional Council Agenda Page

They are talking about the powerpoint right now (FAQ on agenda page).

[halifaxboyns]

Nothing wrong with him having plan B and Plan C. He doesn't need to reveal it.

[Dartboy]

I just logged on. the info coming and going and the various parties taking shots at one another playting the media off with the public - all hard on the head.

[q12]

Daytime rendering, which Joe Ramia is saying is still very much fluid and will likely change again with more input.

Source Haligonia.ca (Screenshot)

Watching some online, quite interesting listening to Scott Ferguson and Joe Ramia. Council seems to be quite positive with their questions to them for the most part which gives me a good feeling that this will proceed.

[halifaxboyns]

I'm finding the debate council is having quite interesting.
I ended up going home sick because I feel aweful and wasn't sure if there was anymore debate going on. I'm happy to see there is some going on; despite the fact i'm cuddled up in blankets lol.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I'm finding the debate council is having quite interesting.
I ended up going home sick because I feel aweful and wasn't sure if there was anymore debate going on. I'm happy to see there is some going on; despite the fact i'm cuddled up in blankets lol.

Yes the HRM council has asked good questions and has been diplomatic in their questions to Joe Ramia. I also think that Joe Ramia is very impressive. Just imagine if Nova Scotia had another 100 or more businessmen like Joe Ramia, it would be in a far better financial state.

Regarding being sick halifaxboyns, I swear by the herb ECHINACEA. If I get a cold or flu, I start taking it and I feel better within a few days.

PS: Part of the Nova Centre will be residential. If Joe Ramia can't sell enough office space then he will convert more of it to residential. Regardless, some will be residential. This project just keeps getting better and better.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Yes the HRM council has asked good questions and has been diplomatic in their questions to Joe Ramia. I also think that Joe Ramia is very impressive. Just imagine if Nova Scotia had another 100 or more businessmen like Joe Ramia, it would be in a far better financial state.

Regarding being sick halifaxboyns, I swear by the herb ECHINACEA. If I get a cold or flu, I start taking it and I feel better within a few days.

I think Harvey is pontificating and that's fine; let them pontificate.
I'm only home sick because I'm exausted working on a project I'm working on. Plus I have a big exam for my professional designation as an urban planner this weekend; so it's all good.

I think Joe has been reasonable in his response and he's quite comfortable with dealing with council. I pity the HRM staff member this morning; I worked with Jim and he seemed all over the place which is not normally him.

I'm curious who these financial and insurance companies are? Anyone have any ideas?

[Empire]

Dr. Colonel Sanders is just the nitwit that I suspected he was. He is actually saying that you can't build a Convention Centre because everyone else is and there will be too much competition.

What is so amazing is that we are not talking about risking 1-2 billion dollars. 46+ million is a minimal amount for the net benefit.

What we are talking about is a legally blocked view from the citadel.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Empire

Dr. Colonel Sanders is just the nitwit that I suspected he was. He is actually saying that you can't build a Convention Centre because everyone else is and there will be too much competition.

What is so amazing is that we are not talking about risking 1-2 billion dollars. 46+ million is a minimal amount for the net benefit.

What we are talking about is a legally blocked view from the citadel.

Colonel Sanders, that made me laugh. Perhaps he should double down?

[Empire]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Colonel Sanders, that made me laugh. Perhaps he should double down?

Perhaps Dal shouldn't spend 600 million on their facilities. I'm sure UPEI, UNB or U of T are spending money on upgrades so therefore everyone will go there instead. What a risk of taxpayers money Bruce! Dr. Sanders.

[halifaxboyns]

The staff presentation on taxation is certainly interesting - answers a lot of questions for me.

Certainly pokes a lot of holes in Pacey's arguments and letter to the Herald.

[Keith P.]

I just wish someone had asked Col. Sanders the question: since the Save the View crew who brought you in have been shown to have lied and distributed misinformation about this project at every opportunity, why should anyone believe a word you say?

It is clear that the left-wingers -- Epstein, Pacey, et al -- have mounted a very aggressive campaign against this project based on the finances and cost. Left-wingers would rather put that money into black holes like health care and welfare than economic development projects. Normally the business community would be able to shout them down pretty easily using facts. But in this case the lefties have been louder in the comments section of the Herald and the rest of the media, while the business community has not been that vocal. Why? Offered for your approval: is it because the NDP govt is supporting this since they know it is needed for the economy, but the business community does not trust them and therefore will not ally themselves with them to defend this?

[Empire]

Companies like Daewoo are setting up in NS to tap the US market. Guess what, Halifax is closer to Europe that all of the U.S. What a great place to have a convention.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Empire

Companies like Daewoo are setting up in NS to tap the US market. Guess what, Halifax is closer to Europe that all of the U.S. What a great place to have a convention.

Halifax is the last stop on the European circle route for air travel. St. John's is off the circle - so we're better positioned from a transportation perspective.

Keith> I took a nap and only tuned in for the last 45 minutes; did Sanders actually speak to council or are you refering to him on the news?

I find it interesting that the office tower will also have some residential - that's new to me; but very interesting. Would be one hell of a view!

[Dmajackson]

I watched some of the presentations when my class stopped learning things early this morning (like 11ish or something) and somehow managed to stay awake long enough to hear a colleague present and for council to take a lunch break. From what I heard it was well presented and staff were answering many of the important questions in a fair manner.

I can only handle som much economic and taxation talk so I only saw small segments of the council debate. What I did see was fair and mostly positive.

[halifaxboyns]

I rather like the fact that the finance staff have been clear in their presentation that it's easier to quantify losses and negative effects to the city than it would be the economic spin offs.

I think the Councillor Sloane's comment about the centre being eco-friendly is a reasonable as well. I was unaware that this was going to be lead gold; I suspect I missed that - I know here in Calgary, any City projects must achieve at least lead gold if not platinum. I know Alderman Druh Farrell pushes that at planning commission all the time.

For me; I can see the potential economic impacts and spin off's easily, versus the negatives. Obviously the spin offs would be greater occupancy and demand for hotels during convention season (negative would be more empty rooms in the low season), more demand for hotels in general, if more corporate offices (new businesses move here) the jobs and need for more office space, tourism, downtown business benefits (restaurants, stores, etc.) and certainly potential increased tourism (visitors, transportation (rail, car and flights)).

The negatives i can see would be the centre is a complete flop needing tax dollars to fund operations or be bought out. The office space issue has been brought up as well; could create such a huge vacancy rate that there would be no further need for years.

I guess for me - I'm willing to accept staff's recommendation and efforts to lower the risk and I'd go for it. You can't make money without spending money.

[someone123]

I glanced at the Colonel's white paper but to be honest it took too long to find useful information aside from sweeping claims that sound plausible but are very general and would need to be backed up with lots of data and careful arguments to be credible. You'd think that if this were as cut-and-dried as he seems to present it there would be some big graphs somewhere showing how poorly the industry is doing.

Even if many of his points are correct they may not be relevant to Halifax. I'm sure if you are in, say, Columbus, and Cleveland and Cincinatti are building $500M convention centres there might be too much competition for the same conferences. In the Maritimes, however, Halifax is by far the largest city in a very large radius. With the Nova Centre there would be no regional competition for major events.

Another key point is that there is a lot of value to holding big events, even if they primarily attract locals. People enjoy going to things like car shows and there's a benefit to being able to have events of a certain scale in the Maritimes. Without the Nova Centre these events would simply not take place and people in the region would lose out. This is a benefit that isn't properly captured by focusing only on net monetary gains for the government.

His paper also points out a lot of things that sound pretty bad but aren't true in the case of the Nova Centre proposal. The public-sector budget for this project is fairly small and does not involve subsidies for the hotel or office tower.

My guess is that in his poorly attended conference here (the industry is dying you know) he is presenting canned information of questionable relevance. No doubt the Save the View crowd will find it very easy to cheer along despite the fact that the contribution is not particularly useful.