PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by Baconboy007

Just playing the devils advocate here but a lot of the coworkers I had at Comcast did not live in the city, a lot lived in KOP or Jersey. But to be fair a lot were moving into the city.

But remember: the CITC is designed to house only programmers, software engineers, and other young, creative, and high-tech types (hence the "Innovation and Technology" in the name of the building, and the innovative design of the interior spaces). Not your average Comcast corporate HQ types (not that there's anything wrong with them ).

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Kidphilly

read further

"This makes it very
convenient for 113,801 Philadelphians
living outside of Greater Center City
(41.9% of the downtown workforce
and more than 25% of all working
Philadelphians in these neighborhoods)"

and what these neighborhoods entail

"Center City Philadelphia has evolved
in the last two decades into a thriving,
live-work downtown with 288,493
jobs and 175,736 residents between
Girard Avenue and Tasker Street"

http://www.centercityphila.org/BDEEB6F6-...3ABF121686/docs/CCR13_transportation.pdf

Again. You're misreading it. 41% of the downtown workforce commutes into Center City. Sooo where does the remainder of the downtown workforce live??? IN CENTER CITY. I'm not sure what the second part means. It's really unclear to me, but I think it means more than 25% of all working Philadelphian's work in Center City. It says nothing about 25% of people working in Center City live in Center City.

[Jelly Roll]

Does anyone have any information on 740-48 S Broad St? I see that it is currently listed for sale and the rendering on the listing is interesting.


The listing is here

[Kidphilly]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Again. You're misreading it. 41% of the downtown workforce commutes into Center City. Sooo where does the remainder of the downtown workforce live??? IN CENTER CITY. I'm not sure what the second part means. It's really unclear to me, but I think it means more than 25% of all working Philadelphian's work in Center City. It says nothing about 25% of people working in Center City live in Center City.

Nope

Some additional quick math

A. 288K DT employees
B. 114K DT employees live outside Philly proper
C. 177K Live between Girard and Tasker (not all work DT - myself among them)

A - B = 174K remaining non outside of Philly commuters

A - B - C = -3K hmmm where did they go

A * 25% = ~65-70K = Numbers of people between Girard and Tasker that work DT


I am an old finance guy play with numbers all the time

Your Numbers dont make sense

A * 60% = 170K = DT people working living between Girad and Tasker = nope/nada esp considering at best 70% * C = employed people in these areas which is 130K

[Baconboy007]

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

But remember: the CITC is designed to house only programmers, software engineers, and other young, creative, and high-tech types (hence the "Innovation and Technology" in the name of the building, and the innovative design of the interior spaces). Not your average Comcast corporate HQ types (not that there's anything wrong with them ).

It was the programmer types that loved in KOP

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by Baconboy007

It was the programmer types that loved in KOP

I'm talking about the app-creating/hacker type of programmers, and not the payroll/HR/billing/inventory/IT back-office types. But maybe you are, too.

In any event, Center City, NoLibs, etc. would be more their style than would KOP.

[Plokoon11]

I kept seeing this thread being brought up and with more pages today thinking something 800+ was proposed haha. Just to find out it was about CITC workers debate.

[Larry King]

Originally Posted by Kidphilly

Nope

Some additional quick math

A. 288K DT employees
B. 114K DT employees live outside Philly proper
C. 177K Live between Girard and Tasker (not all work DT - myself among them)

A - B = 174K remaining non outside of Philly commuters

A - B - C = -3K hmmm where did they go

A * 25% = ~65-70K = Numbers of people between Girard and Tasker that work DT


I am an old finance guy play with numbers all the time

Your Numbers dont make sense

A * 60% = 170K = DT people working living between Girad and Tasker = nope/nada esp considering at best 70% * C = employed people in these areas which is 130K

I think it's time that greater center city is extended past girard. The girard border cuts off fishtown, south kensington and brewerytown.. places with lots of activity that are culturally part of greater center city

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Kidphilly

Nope

Some additional quick math

A. 288K DT employees
B. 114K DT employees live outside Philly proper
C. 177K Live between Girard and Tasker (not all work DT - myself among them)

A - B = 174K remaining non outside of Philly commuters

A - B - C = -3K hmmm where did they go

A * 25% = ~65-70K = Numbers of people between Girard and Tasker that work DT


I am an old finance guy play with numbers all the time

Your Numbers dont make sense

A * 60% = 170K = DT people working living between Girad and Tasker = nope/nada esp considering at best 70% * C = employed people in these areas which is 130K

I know. I'm just confusing myself now lol... but I'm willing to bet that more than 65-70k people living in Greater Center City, work in Greater Center City.

[philatonian]

Originally Posted by Jelly Roll

Does anyone have any information on 740-48 S Broad St? I see that it is currently listed for sale and the rendering on the listing is interesting.


The listing is here

I think it's just a real estate rendering, basically saying "look what you can do with this lot."

[philatonian]

Originally Posted by Pennsgrant

Id like to cool it with the glass boxes for awhile. Especially on one of the few buildable lots along the Schuylkill.This is a prime location and Id like to see something more fitting. This development calls for mid rises that blend with the current old architecture.

I guess I'm OK with the taller tower which transitions Market/JFK the Skyscraper core. What I don't like is the wasted space and the sprawlers with the rest of the development.

It just doesn't work for me here. I'd prefer an old school. design.

I don't like the broad pedestals that the shorter towers are setting on. From the street you'll only be able to see the podium and they'll look like parking garages.

By old architecture or fitting, do you mean townhouses? The existing apartments in the area seem very dated, 80s and 90s. Being riverfront I think the developer wants to offer as many units as possible a view of the river, so that's probably why they're apartments and not townhouses.

I am a little surprised that they went with a glass curtain instead of putting balconies on the units given the views of the river. It's not a fantastic design but it also looks very preliminary. I wouldn't be surprised if it changes as it inches towards approval. I wouldn't mind seeing something more interesting like the Grove but I really don't think this plan, especially the tall component, are dull.

[Baconboy007]

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

I'm talking about the app-creating/hacker type of programmers, and not the payroll/HR/billing/inventory/IT back-office types. But maybe you are, too.

In any event, Center City, NoLibs, etc. would be more their style than would KOP.

I'm in HR and live in the city, the programmer hacking... Lived in KOP. Also to be fair it was like working at the UN there, they do a good job of mixing it up.

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by Baconboy007

I'm in HR and live in the city, the programmer hacking... Lived in KOP.

Role reversal.

Originally Posted by Baconboy007

Also to be fair it was like working at the UN there, they do a good job of mixing it up.

But again, keep in mind that CITC is supposed to be something completely different: a vertical, downtown version of a Silicon Valley high-tech campus a la Google, Facebook, or Apple (for which Foster also has designed a new facility). This won't be the mix of jobs and folks like the one in which you apparently worked while at Comcast. It's intended to be a consolidation--and expansion--of all of the leading-edge technology, media, and software research and development in which Comcast plans to be involved in the future. Again, lots of twenty-something hacker types working crazy hours, like you find at Google, Facebook, etc. (and speaking of crazy hours, that's another reason that many--if not most--of them will want to live in or near Center City).

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by philatonian

I think it's just a real estate rendering, basically saying "look what you can do with this lot."

That is what I expected but was hoping it was more then that.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by Jelly Roll

Does anyone have any information on 740-48 S Broad St? I see that it is currently listed for sale and the rendering on the listing is interesting.


The listing is here

Whatever it is, it's either far too tall or way too short. Too generically modern or too faux brick. Damn these crappy designs. I mean thank god for them.

[Philly2Queens]

Originally Posted by Kidphilly

read further

"This makes it very
convenient for 113,801 Philadelphians
living outside of Greater Center City
(41.9% of the downtown workforce
and more than 25% of all working
Philadelphians in these neighborhoods)"

and what these neighborhoods entail

"Center City Philadelphia has evolved
in the last two decades into a thriving,
live-work downtown with 288,493
jobs and 175,736 residents between
Girard Avenue and Tasker Street"

http://www.centercityphila.org/BDEEB6F6-...3ABF121686/docs/CCR13_transportation.pdf

The report starts out by referencing Philadelphians that comprise the center city workforce but do not live in center city. "This makes it very convenient for 113,801 Philadelphians living outside of Greater Center City..."(my emphasis added).

This number naturally excludes people who do not live in the city at all. What its telling us is that 41.9% of the downtown workforce lives in the city proper but not in Center City. This leaves 58.1% of that workforce split between center city and the suburbs.

As for the 25% figure, I would read it that 25% of all Philadelphians who do not live downtown but have a job work in Center City.

http://www.centercityphila.org/docs/CCR13_transportation.pdf

According to the same source, there are 288,493 jobs in center city and 244,386 people commuting in from outside of center city and the surrounding suburbs "Center City is easily accessible to the 244,386 residents from the balance of the city, surrounding counties, and outlying areas who work downtown."

Doing the math, this would mean that only 44,107 center city jobs are filled by people who live in center city, or 15.3% of the center city workforce. The remaining jobs are filled 41.9% by non center-city Philadelphians and 42.8 suburbians.

Now since the consensus is that the CITC employees will skew younger and tech- type, maybe we assume 20% of those people will live in center city, or 600 of the 3000 new employees there. That's probably enough to fill 400 units assuming an average of 1.5 people per unit.

I think its fair to say that the CITC will directly fill those units because it will create new center city residents, and indirectly fuel several developments vying for those new residents.

Hope that helps

[Kidphilly]

Originally Posted by Philly2Queens

The report starts out by referencing Philadelphians that comprise the center city workforce but do not live in center city. "This makes it very convenient for 113,801 Philadelphians living outside of Greater Center City..."(my emphasis added).

This number naturally excludes people who do not live in the city at all. What its telling us is that 41.9% of the downtown workforce lives in the city proper but not in Center City. This leaves 58.1% of that workforce split between center city and the suburbs.

As for the 25% figure, I would read it that 25% of all Philadelphians who do not live downtown but have a job work in Center City.

http://www.centercityphila.org/docs/CCR13_transportation.pdf

According to the same source, there are 288,493 jobs in center city and 244,386 people commuting in from outside of center city and the surrounding suburbs "Center City is easily accessible to the 244,386 residents from the balance of the city, surrounding counties, and outlying areas who work downtown."

Doing the math, this would mean that only 44,107 center city jobs are filled by people who live in center city, or 15.3% of the center city workforce. The remaining jobs are filled 41.9% by non center-city Philadelphians and 42.8 suburbians.

Now since the consensus is that the CITC employees will skew younger and tech- type, maybe we assume 20% of those people will live in center city, or 600 of the 3000 new employees there. That's probably enough to fill 400 units assuming an average of 1.5 people per unit.

I think its fair to say that the CITC will directly fill those units because it will create new center city residents, and indirectly fuel several developments vying for those new residents.

Hope that helps

Makes sense - the ~40K number actually makes even more ense to me

I live in CC and my office is in Plymouth Meeting though spend most of time in N Jersey when not working from home - I know many mny other reverse commuters in my area

[McBane]

While I agree that young IT creative types may more disposed than the average Joe to live in an urban environment over the burbs, I think that it's still too far a stretch to assume:

1) That they will live in CC - you have to cast a wider net. It's not just CC, but also all of the surrounding neighborhoods, too and even Manayunk and perhaps Conshy, too. Those periphery neighborhoods are not high rise districts.

2) That they want to live in a high rise - Of the bunch who want to live in car free in CC, how many want to live in a high rise vs a walk up?

3) That they want to spend the money on new construction - Of those who want to live in a high rise, how many can afford - or want to dedicate that much money towards new construction (as opposed to say, spending less on a home and more on travel or dining out or perhaps to own a car)?

When you filter the numbers through those assumptions, you're left with a small number. Again, it's going to continue to push the momentum into CC's favor, but we're not going to see numerous towers based on CITC alone. My hope is that a few more company's decide to locate in CC to be closer to Comcast. I'd much rather CITC spark more commercial high rise towers anyway.

[Kidphilly]

Back to regularly scheduled broadcasting

http://blog.philadelphiarealestate.com/large-new-apartment-buildings-broad-callowhill-approved/

[Larry King]

Originally Posted by Jelly Roll

That is what I expected but was hoping it was more then that.

I'm pretty sure it's not even zoned for that