Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

Awesome work fenwick! I hope you get permanent season tickets when the stadium opens.

Thank you Empire. I may be getting carried away in my interest regarding this stadium concept.

Today, I phoned a company in Canada regarding the cost of stadium risers and rakers.

A stadium riser is the component illustrated in the following image:

The person that I spoke to today said that they can sell precast stadium risers (150 mm thick, reinforced) for $150 per linear meter (length) of riser. My 3D model with 21,440 seats would have about 800 linear feet of risers per row (all around) x 47 rows which is 37,600 linear feet (total) or 11,429 linear meters. So at $150 per linear-meter, the risers alone would cost $1,714,350 for the whole stadium.


I also got ball-park pricing on stadium rakers (this will be a rough estimate since the raker designs can vary greatly). The rough cost estimate was $300 per linear-meter for the rakers. Stadium rakers are illustrated in the following image.

In my 3D model, there are rakers on the bottom tier and top tier. The rakers are at 25 foot centre-to-centre distance (25 to 30 feet is the typical span since longer spans will require heavier, sturdier risers so it is not cost effective to have too great a span - this is based on information from the person that I spoke to today, and also by looking at stadium images on the internet). In my 3D model, there are 68 rakers (top and bottom). The total length for all of these rakers is 1,496 meters ((34 x 24 meters) + (34 x 20 meters)) plus another 415 meters for 68 shorter lengths to support one unmatched side of the seating passageways (top and bottom tiers). At a ball-park estimate of $300/linear_meter x 1911 linear_meters (1,496 + 415) the cost would be $573,300.

So a rough estimate for the risers and rakers is:
$1,714,350 (risers) + $573,300 (rakers) = $2,287,650 (total) - components only (not including transportation and assembly)

However, this doesn't include transportation and assembly costs. (and there might be a setup charge for each different form - so it would be best to stick to a few different components - the forms are usually one-off, specifically built for each project). The person that I spoke to, stated that if precast components were shipped from an Ontario manufacturer as compared to a Quebec company then transportation would cost three times as much as it would for a Quebec company. So it makes sense to get the precast components either from Quebec or the Maritime Provinces in order to keep the transportation cost down. Strescon is one company that he mentioned in the Maritime provinces (however there are others). He also mentioned that it might be cost effective to have a hybrid stadium construction of cast-in-place and precast construction. Edited by me I did an estimate of shipping cost from Ontario - I would estimate a transportation cost of $100 per ton (fully loaded) which would add almost $50 dollars per linear-meter to the cost of the risers (then the cost would be about $50 plus $150 = approximately $200 per linear meter for risers). I corrected this, since I think that I misunderstood the person's statement (the transportation wouldn't cost more than the riser cost, as I stated previously - I think he was referring to transportation costing three times as much, not the components costing three times as much).

One other interesting piece of information - the representative that I spoke to said that basic stadiums are assembled similarly to car garages. They can give a price per car for car garages that includes precast components, assembly and transportation. They can do the same with stadiums - give a price per seat and then do all the precast components and assembly right up to the point of installing the seats or benches.

I got these rough estimates for risers and rakers in order to satisfy my own curiosity. I didn't get pricing on the columns, beams, and flooring (maybe this could be cast-in-place), nor did I get the cost of erection. So the cost of $2,287,650 for the stadium rakers and risers is only a small percantage of the total stadium cost, there will be many other factors to include - erection cost, columns, beams, washrooms, electrical system, exterior cladding, stairways, night lighting, scoreboards, field turf, field drainage system, partial roof, etc. However, I feel that an economical stadium can be built if this is a top priority in the stadium design.

[ATL Stadium]

There are several considerations of course when funding a Stadium.
The key thing here is that HRM will carry debt. The Provincve was not forthcoming on the 4Pad (BMO Ctr) they only paid around 4 million of the total project cost.....
The three levels will have to be upfront on participation.
I can see it kind of shaping up like this....total cost $75 million
Feds pony up the Shannon Site and a cash amount of 15 to $20million
Province.....10 to $15 million....
That would leave HRM taxpayers with the rest...40 to $50 million....

That would be borrowed and the re-payment over a life span of maybe 30+ years...

THEN there is the annual maintenance costs and the prospect of offsetting revenues....from fees like naming rights and advertising....parking revenues, leases to teams and promoters...all likely a break even situation....

[beyeas]

I was in Winnipeg this week, and was reading the newspaper articles about the city council vote on the new stadium there and the current proposed funding plan. Makes for some interesting and relevant reading wrt Halifax. Of the stadium they are going for is much more "platinum", so not quite the same, but still interesting to see how it is playing out.

[fenwick16]

Strescon is a company with its headquarters in St John, New Brunswick and has a facility in Bedford, Nova Scotia. I don't want this to sound like an advertisement but the quote (below) is from their website. They have over 40 years of experience in the precast concrete business. Also, since they are a Maritime company the transportation costs should be low if the stadium components are precast in Bedford (or even St. John). They also do poured concrete. Not only will the Halifax area get a stadium, it will also get many of the jobs that are generated. PS: The parent company (OSCO) also does metal construction which would be useful with a metal supported roof structure. They also do the construction management and electrical work - http://www.oscoconstructiongroup.com/construction.aspx. I don't know much about this company other than what I have read but it sounds as though they could do an entire stadium project - right from the engineering design, foundations, precast/poured-in-place erection, metal roof, electrical installation, maybe even the plumbing. Here is a company in the Maritimes that can design and build the entire stadium! Being a Maritime company, they will understand why this project is important to Halifax and create something that can be a source of pride to Haligonians.

I hope the answer to the question (below) will be yes, very soon, in the Halifax area. Does anyone have connections to this company? I bet they would love to build a stadium in Halifax.

From the Ocean Steel website (Strescon division) - http://www.oceansteel.com/stadiumtech.aspx

Building a Stadium or Arena?

Precast has become the preferred choice for arenas & recreational facilities because of durability and ease of maintenance. Seating risers are often combined with other precast components such as stairs, columns, beams and exterior wall panels for complete facility packages.

Prestressing Precast concrete segments has allowed this versatile material to form complex components of a stadium such as cantilever arms and ring beam construction to support the roofs of these structures. Precast Concrete is also commonly used for cantilevered raker beams, plus standard beams and columns which carry the seating and provide unobstructed viewing of the playing surface.

Mass Stadium seating units have been manufactured in a variety of configurations and spans to provide for quick installation and long lasting service. Strescore plank has been used for Pedestrian ramps, thoroughfares, concession, toilet, and dressing room areas. A wide range of precast prestressed concrete elements can be utilized in the design and construction of your next stadium / arena project.

[halifaxboyns]

Fenwick - I have to say I'm impressed with the amount of work you've done. This is all very helpful against the C.A.V.E dwellers (Citizens Against Virtually Everything) and I suspect when this comes up at council; they will be out in full force.

I don't know if I agree with you ATL on the federal government giving up Shannon for a stadium. It would be Canada Land's call and from what I recall reading, aren't there contamination issues too? I could be wrong on that.

HRM could give up land within it's industrial parks too - which seemed to be a quick resolve on the location issue (didn't we as a group talk about a site near the new fields by Dartmouth Crossing inside the Burnside Park extension?). HRM could also give up land at Exhibition Park if that was a site as well - which could reduce the cost for land acquision.

[q12]

Kelly has private sport chats
Mayor confirms ‘preliminary’ talks held with private sector about new stadium

By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter
Sun, Dec 19 - 11:32 AM

Mayor Peter Kelly said Saturday that he’s had "very preliminary" talks with local business people about potential private sector support for a proposed sports stadium in metro.

But the mayor said it’s too early to say whether the discussion will lead anywhere.

Kelly said one business operator he spoke to would be willing to put up some money to finance a stadium in Halifax Regional Municipality. He wouldn’t name the individual.

"Things are being analyzed and partnerships are being explored," Kelly told The Chronicle Herald. "We’ll see what comes out of it."

Kelly said he had talks with private sector interests in the last month or two. Asked if he considered the stadium scenario to be a realistic one, he said, "From the source where it was coming from, yes."

The Canadian Soccer Association is hoping to land an international tournament in this country and at least six cities would be needed to play host. Events Nova Scotia is covering a $25,000 non-refundable fee for an official bid from Halifax.

Expressions of interest must be filed by Dec. 24.

Even if the 2015 FIFA Women’s World Cup never comes to metro, this month’s regional council endorsement of efforts to make it a host city may finally get the ball rolling on a sports stadium here, said the regional councillor who promoted the idea at a recent committee of the whole session.

Coun. Darren Fisher (East Dartmouth-The Lakes) told the meeting he believes the municipality has a shot at becoming one of the host sites in the Canadian bid for the World Cup.

Kelly said more discussions with private business folks about a proposed stadium are possible.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1218015.html

More good news!

[fenwick16]

That is great news. It is great to see a stadium for the Halifax area being seriously discussed. There seems to be a majority of people in the Halifax area who would like to see a stadium built (based on a recent survey). Hopefully the Mayor and others who are promoting a stadium will get the necessary financial support to make it a reality. I am still hoping that the HRM council will set up a building fund that individuals can contribute to.

[-Harlington-]

Peter Kelley was on CTV news talking about this and it was really positive
gettin the ball rollin

[Empire]

Originally Posted by -Harlington-

Peter Kelley was on CTV news talking about this and it was really positive
gettin the ball rollin

Excellent, obviously Mayor Kelly realizes that the majority of HRM residents want a stadium now. Could a library, convention centre and a stadium be under construction at the same time?

[halifaxboyns]

I find it interesting that most were supporting a stadium, versus a convention centre lol. I hopeful that all three projects will go ahead. But we have to be careful - interest won't stay low for long so lets take advantage but also lets get a lot of private investment in this.

[CorbeauNoir]

Only a loosely-related note, but there's been some quiet talk about the Heritage Classic being hosted on a regular basis and including 'neutral' cities. Would be great to see an HC hosted in Halifax if it comes to pass.

[wespidel]

Mayor Kelly was on CTV on Sunday nite talking strictly on a stadium for our city. Mayor Kelly I believe is showing great leadership and really is trying hard to make this a reality. He spoke of costs to build a stadium in Halifax between 1,200 and 2,200 dollars per/ seat cost and indicated this would be either a 40 or 60 million dollar stadium which if you do the numbers should equal a 25,000 seat permanent seat stadium with skyboxes and permanent concession and washroom inside stadium concourses if it`s the 60 million dollar model which Halifax would most likely need to qualify for a potential CFL franchise and to attract a CFL franchise owner. I believe if it`s a 40 million model we will not be able to attract a CFL franchise because minium requirements for a CFL model stadium is 25 thousand permanent seats with concourses on both side of stadium with inside washrooms and concession stands, 20 plus skyboxes & pressboxes, modern video screen and scoreboard with the latest articifial turf. Another important note is what Fenwick 16 has mentioned is to build it with concrete precast risers and have them pre made in NS to cut transportation costs and get a GMP, guaranteed maxium price and shop around for the best price.

Only Moncton`s small press box side of stadium which by the way cannot be expanded on that side of their stadium have concrete risers and was build out of concrete but very small and has a extremely small inside concourse with few washrooms and concession stands in a tight area. The seats and the stands are nice on that side of staium but very small in size.

Moncton`s other side of their stadium is a steel frame structure with no concourse, no washroom or concession stands but is larger in seating area with backed seats. Moncton stadium needs at 50 million or more upgrade to make it a CFL peramanent model stadium and apparently can max out their stadium to 28 thousand which would never be big enough to stage a Grey Cup Game because of the confiquration. They surely have missed the boat and it is really a mickey mouse type stadium. Lets hope Halifax don`t do the same! Mayor Kelly said on CTV News that is would not be 25 million to 50 million range but it would be 40 to 60 million which should give us a CFL Model stadium if Halifax selects the 60 million model and if they don`t they may be in the same situation as Moncton with an inadequate, incapable stadium that is not big enough to attract a major sporting CFL franchise or other major professional sporting event nor to hold a major concert, or to expand a 25,000 plus permanent seat stadium to a minium of 45 to 50 thousand for a Grey Cup game.

Moncton apparently spent a lot of money for their track and less on their stadium because of the type of event they hosted. For the size of Halifax compared to Moncton, Halifax must move to build a much bigger and better stadium for the size of our city and to build it in the right location so it can be permanenly expanded in seat capacity when needed and also has enough room at the location to expand with a make shift stadium to 45 to 50 thousand for major concerts and a Grey Cup Game for Atlantic Canada. But what is most crucial is that Halifax needs to realize if they are going to build a stadium that Halifax definitely needs, that it has be a CFL Model style perament seat stadium with a minium of 25 thousand permanent seats which is required to qualify for a CFL franchise and with all the amedities, skyboxes etc. so the CFL owner can be financially viable and the facility is sizable that it can attract other major events.


Fenwick I would like to thank -you for all your work and I have attempted to express my opinion has well to the top and we need as much support has we can get to get as many positive people behind this stadium project to make sure they build the right model, modest stadium that has the features and size to accomodate CFL football and other major events.

Fenwick I hope you attend the public stadium meeting that I believe the city of Halifax apparently are going to put on.

PS. Important note a stadium built a Saint Mary`s would be a disaster and would not be suitable nor big enough nor be the right location. Saint Mary`s has neglected their stadium for other projects on their campus and it`s their responsible to renovate their football stadium to 5,000 seats which is all they need and Halifax needs to build what they need and that is a multi purpose major CFL style stadium with all the necessities and size and location to attract major sporting and major concert events.


SPYDER*

[worldlyhaligonian]

I would buy a seat for up to $3000... think about how valuable it would be in the future.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Fenwick I would like to thank -you for all your work and I have attempted to express my opinion has well to the top and we need as much support has we can get to get as many positive people behind this stadium project to make sure they build the right model, modest stadium that has the features and size to accomodate CFL football and other major events.

Fenwick I hope you attend the public stadium meeting that I believe the city of Halifax apparently are going to put on.

SPYDER*

Thank you for comments wespidel and welcome to this forum. I believe that a stadium can be built for $2000 per seat which as a permanent concrete facility that could easily be expanded to over 40,000 (I really like concrete over steel). I am adding some finishing touches to the stadium model but maintaining it as a modular concept with repeating units which I think is important in order to keep the cost down. I am spending most of my spare time on this - currently I am researching the building code requirements such as whether the concourses will have to be sprinklered, exit width requirements, etc. Also I am thinking about the layout of change-rooms and other amenities (I have some ideas that I would like to post in the next couple of days). My models keep changing as I learn more about stadium requirements, however all of the concepts are being based on real stadiums.

Most likely my model won't be the stadium that is built but I enjoy doing the research and it gives us an opportunity to consider what is important in a stadium so that when the public consultations begin we can ask meaningful questions.

[wespidel]

Fenwick the minium requirements for a CFL size featured ready stadium are similar to what Montreal presently has at McGill, after Als`s recent expansion to bring them up to the minium amount of 25,ooo permanent seats needed for a CFL model stadium. Plus they added 19 more new modern skyboxes, 5,000 more permanent seats with inside washroom and concession concourses on both side of the stadium.

Fenwick try to come up with a similar model like Montreal`s CFL model McGill stadium.

Fenwiick I believe there should be backed seat versus benches, what is the difference in cost because BC lions temporary stadium will probably have 27,500 backed seats for sale on a real deal if it`s a big difference in price.
Personally I would rather see benches and 25,000 plus permanent seats with all the other important amendities, skyboxes, concourses, a modern video screen scoreboard and the latest artificial turf to qualify for a CFL style type stadium in order to have the necessary features needed to attract a CFL franchise and other major events and have it built in the proper location so it can be permanently expanded and also expanded with a make shift to a minium of 45 to 50 thousand for a Grey Cup game in the future.


Fenwick try to come of with a model with 25,000 plus permanent seats, with 20 plus skyboxes, concourses on both sides of stadium with backed seats, modern press boxes with a modern video screen and scoreboard with the latest artificial turf. Should be able to build this style stadium for 60 to 65 million if it is built in the right location and built in a cost sufficient modest way, with your suggestions of local precast concrete risers and built out of concrete and not steel. I parcel roof may drive the cost up to high, what do you think FENWICK 16. What can be built for 60 million?


SPYDER*

PS. BC Lions also have football size dressing rooms, a nice artificial field turf, video screen and score board and 14 skyboxes and small press boxes which could be expanded if these parts of their temporary stadium are obtainable and workable. It`s something that Halifax perchaps should be checking out and maybe they could be use to help build a CFL model styled stadium in Halifax.

[q12]

Mayor Kelly is on News 95.7's Rick Howe Show promoting the stadium idea.

He says the keys to moving this forward are:

• Getting private investment
• Ensure no conflict with universities building their own stadium
• Get all levels of government involved

He says if these things can happen it can be a good deal for taxpayers.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

For the first time in a long time I am feeling like there is a will to make this happen. Hopefully this positive momentum continues to get stronger.

[ATL Stadium]

I think they are doing a rerun of the CTV interview on tonights news. LIve at 5 Might shed some light on the finer details.
Glad some of this stuff has come to the public for some cheers and I'm sure geers..... but I'm Cheering!

[halifaxboyns]

Found this article on CBC for NB - apparently the stadium moncton built is almost $4 million over budget.CBC story

[wespidel]

Moncton city council vote tonite to bid on the Women`s World Cup Of Soccer, to bewcome one of 6 hosts cities in Canada to host.

On CTV tonite Peter MacKay expressed real interest in support of a major stadium to be built in Halifax. Yes, he used the word major stadium and said if Mayor Kelly and the province come up with a good proposal and present it to him he would seriously take a long look at it because he said that was one of the main reasons that they will willing and excited to support the CommonWealth Games bid because it would have gave Halifax a major stadium.

Also CTV reported that the Mayor Kelly said that he wants to see the stadium start construction within the next two years and also said that the stadium would seat close to 30 thousand people.

I`m impressed, so hopefully it will be the 60 million plus model with all the amendities, skyboxes, inside stadium concourses, etc.

What do you think Fenwick 16, can Halifax, if they build a stadium in the right location, can they build a modest 30 thousand seat stadium for 60 million plus and if so what kind of stadium will be be? It aso very important that those 28 thousand or 30 thousand seats are permanent seats not 20 thousand permanent and a make shift to 28 or 30 thousand. But I believe the way Mayor Kelly was factoring out the cost of a stadium, per/seat cost to build a stadium, that in the 40 to 60 million range, that the seats were permanent. Good job Mayor Kelly!

PS. Also it`s obvious what Sue Uteck and Saint Mary`s are trying to do, is only think about themselves and their needs and not the city of Halifax and the surrounding area and what the city and the people want and need in a stadium because the coach of Saint Mary`s football team was on CTV news and said that he basicly wants the stadium built on campus, as a free gift from the city and province and the Feds and doesn`t want it built elsewhere and was complaining. I`m sure Sue Uteck is behind this because she has met with Saint Mary`s and they have a blue print for a university 15,000 seat stadium for Saint Mary`s, which I call a Sue Uteck Special so they can get back the Uteck Bowl. Sorry Sue Uteck and Saint Mary`s, the Mayor of Halifax and the public don`t want to have a stadium built at Saint Mary`s to benefit only Sue Uteck and the Saint Mary`s football team. Dal will get a university football team and will be happy to use a new major multi purpose stadium facility where there is room to build the proper size CFL model stadium with all the features and a location where the stadium can be permanently expanded or made into a make shift 45 to 50 thousand seat stadium for a Grey Cup and major concerts and other major events. Not at Saint Mary`s where it can`t!

What do you think people, sounds encouraging and I believe Mayor Kelly is going to build a 60 million dollar multi purpose sizable, expandable major stadium in the right location for the city of Halifax and Moncton you are in big trouble! Watch Mayor Kelly do it and he will because of the World Trade Centre and the new library and the Bedford 4 Pad and Canada Winter Games Centre, it`s the only major project left to complete his mission and this time around, Mayor Kelly is serious and eager and determined to do it right and build it right and he will!

SPYDER*