Statistics Canada Reports II

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

From the perspective of someone toiling away in Academia for 20+ years, and someone that spent 12+ years acquiring university education, I gotta say that these numbers don't look too shabby. Do they leave out the fact about self-funded pensions (re: gross clinical income)?

Gross clinical income = billings.

You have to subtract rent, office expenses, staff salaries (clerical staff and potentially a nurse), professional association fees, continuing medical education costs, malpractice insurance, disability insurance, legal and accounting fees, etc, etc. A gross income of $400,000 can easily be whittled down to $250,000, and, then you have to consider that you then have to make arrangements to privately finance your own retirement, and, secure your our privately funded health and dental plans.

A typical physicians actual take home may be $175,000, which may still sound good, but, you may still be paying off $200,000 or so of student loan and educational expenses.

Meanwhile your typical nurse makes over $100,000 a year with a full benefit package and pension plan, and, they have no where near the 13-15 years of education that we do.

It doesn't sound so good any more does it???

Whenever anyone wants to discredit physicians, all they have to do is roll out our gross billings to diplay to the world, implying that we are all fat cats bilking the system. It REALLY pisses me off.......

You don't see this sort of envy in the US when it comes to physician billings. They seem to realize down there that we are running small businesses. In Canada however, the assumption is that we are state employees with fat pension plans. They assume socialized health care means physicians are salaried employees. Nothing is further frm the truth!

[Nouvellecosse]

If there's anyone who should be paid more it's doctors (and other medical staff). No surprise that we have a shortage given the amount of time and effort it requires to get into the field combined with the stress and responsibility once there.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

If there's anyone who should be paid more it's doctors (and other medical staff). No surprise that we have a shortage given the amount of time and effort it requires to get into the field combined with the stress and responsibility once there.

If you think Canadian doctors are underpaid, you should look at their income in every other country except the US for a better idea of doctors pays in other develop countries to have better idea of where Canadian doctors stand. The truth is that Canadian doctors making a killing when compared to every other developed country bar the US.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Nite

If you think Canadian doctors are underpaid, you should look at their income in every other country except the US for a better idea of doctors pays in other develop countries to have better idea of where Canadian doctors stand.

I'm mostly interested in the amount of time, money and effort they spend starting and maintaining their practice relative to their earning potential compared to people in other fields. The only real interest I have in comparisons to other countries is if we're competing with other countries for talent. But such competition seems mostly relevant with the US since it's the closest geographically and culturally.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Nite

If you think Canadian doctors are underpaid, you should look at their income in every other country except the US for a better idea of doctors pays in other develop countries to have better idea of where Canadian doctors stand. The truth is that Canadian doctors making a killing when compared to every other developed country bar the US.

And it is statements like this that are driving younger physicians to think about relocating to the US. As I have said, professional envy doesn't exist down there to the same degree that it does in this country. Canada has a severe case of "tall poppy syndrome."

Canadian physicians look down the road in this country and see that things are continuing to worsen. There is no expectation that remuneration will keep up with ever increasing costs. Government meddling in health care worsens every year. Health care economists have no fucking idea about what they are doing, and, yet, they continue to make recommendations that lead only to further institutional paralysis. Physicians have less and less power all the time. The US is looking better and better all the time.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Gross clinical income = billings.

You have to subtract rent, office expenses, staff salaries (clerical staff and potentially a nurse), professional association fees, continuing medical education costs, malpractice insurance, disability insurance, legal and accounting fees, etc, etc. A gross income of $400,000 can easily be whittled down to $250,000, and, then you have to consider that you then have to make arrangements to privately finance your own retirement, and, secure your our privately funded health and dental plans.

A typical physicians actual take home may be $175,000, which may still sound good, but, you may still be paying off $200,000 or so of student loan and educational expenses.

Meanwhile your typical nurse makes over $100,000 a year with a full benefit package and pension plan, and, they have no where near the 13-15 years of education that we do.

It doesn't sound so good any more does it???

Whenever anyone wants to discredit physicians, all they have to do is roll out our gross billings to diplay to the world, implying that we are all fat cats bilking the system. It REALLY pisses me off.......

You don't see this sort of envy in the US when it comes to physician billings. They seem to realize down there that we are running small businesses. In Canada however, the assumption is that we are state employees with fat pension plans. They assume socialized health care means physicians are salaried employees. Nothing is further frm the truth!

well, thanks for this, as it helps to clear up the misunderstanding that I fear most Canadians would have about the pay of physicians. It makes no sense to use billings as a surrogate for salaries, and this graphic is therefore completely misleading.

$175K is decidedly not a good average salary for Physicians. I had no idea that it was that low, on average. Most Physicians that I know personally seem to live a lifestyle that would require a far higher income than 175K.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by Nite

If you think Canadian doctors are underpaid, you should look at their income in every other country except the US for a better idea of doctors pays in other develop countries to have better idea of where Canadian doctors stand. The truth is that Canadian doctors making a killing when compared to every other developed country bar the US.

I see your Supply and Demand Denial comes in multiple flavours.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by jonny24

I see your Supply and Demand Denial comes in multiple flavours.

I've never denied supply and demand, what I have always denied is that population growth was the biggest component of house prices changes, that interest rate play by far the biggest role in determining house prices.
In fact i strongly believe in supply and demand but that interest rate affects demand much more than population growth does.
It seems like most around here have finally accepted this fact despite arguing with me about it for so long.

As for doctors are you claiming that they are not among the best compensated in the developed world once you remove the US???
You should look up how much doctors make in europe or developed Asia, i think you will be very surprised.




https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...pay-by-country

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

$175K is decidedly not a good average salary for Physicians. I had no idea that it was that low, on average. Most Physicians that I know personally seem to live a lifestyle that would require a far higher income than 175K.

To be completely honest, physicians are a rather pleomorphic cohort, and, there can be quite a bit of variability in terms of actual physician income.

Your average GP, after expenses, will be in the $150,000 - $180,000 range. I stand by this assertion.

Some specialist groups are also in this range, notably specialists such as pediatricians and psychiatrists.

There are however some specialties where billings are naturally higher. These specialties tend to be surgical or technical, where there are a large number of procedures or tests that can be performed relatively rapidly. This includes (notoriously) ophthalmology, dematology, radiology and neurosurgery. These specialties are much more lucrative than most other physician occupations. Mind you, these are also specialties that demand considerable knowledge, expertise and skill.

Another thing to consider is that not all physician income is derived from medicare billings.
- You can also receive stipends for teaching or administrative work, which boosts the income for academic and hospital based specialists.
- Workers compensation, RCMP and military work is also remunerated differently (fee for servie paid federally, not provincially), and would not be counted towards medicare billings. Some specialties such as orthopedics, neurosurgery and radiology can make considerable income off of this work.
- Clinical trials (often funded by drug companies) are another important source of income (principally for hospital based and academic specialists).
- Some specialists also make a fair bit of coin working as expert witnesses in the legal system. This is paid generally by the law firms representing their clients. Orthopedists and neurosurgeons are often witnesses in personal injury cases, and, the law firms will pay top dollar for their opinions.

And, of course, some physicians are just plain workaholics and try to pick up as much money as they can, working evenings and weekends as locums, and averaging 100 hours per week.

So, yes, some physicians can make a million bucks a year after expenses, but, they are decidedly the minority amongst us. Maybe these are the people you know.

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by jonny24

I see your Supply and Demand Denial comes in multiple flavours.

It's less denial and more confusion as to what the concept actually means. He doesn't go around denying, he always responds with a big confusion of numbers, and unable to formulate responses to what people are saying.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Nite

As for doctors are you claiming that they are not among the best compensated in the developed world once you remove the US???

With respect, there is little use trying to compare physician compensation between Canada and Russia or Brazil. There is no danger of mass Canadian physician emigration to these jurisdiction.

The only market for our skills that really matters is the USA. And, currently, there are more physician vacancies in the US than there are physicians in Canada. They could take us all in in one fell swoop if they wanted to.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

With respect, there is little use trying to compare physician compensation between Canada and Russia or Brazil. There is no danger of mass Canadian physician emigration to these jurisdiction.

The only market for our skills that really matters is the USA. And, currently, there are more physician vacancies in the US than there are physicians in Canada. They could take us all in in one fell swoop if they wanted to.

well it's good that the list includes, Switzerland, US, Germany, UK, Saudi Arabia, China, Japan, France, Italy, Spain and most of the OECD then and it is in comparison to them i am talking about.
By your logic, Canada could to fill all our vacancies by getting all the doctors we need from the UK and France as well, and so down the list we go.
The fact that that never happens is because there is more than potential money that keep doctors from all going to the country with the highest pay.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Nite

well it's good that the list includes, Switzerland, US, Germany, UK, Saudi Arabia, China, Japan, France, Italy, Spain and most of the OECD

The Swiss are better off than us, and the Germans are comparable.

As for the Brits, most consulting specialists, once they get beyond the house doctor stage also do very well.

What do you do for a living might I ask, and, why are you so concerned about physician compensation????

[Nite]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The Swiss are better off than us, and the Germans are comparable.

As for the Brits, most consulting specialists, once they get beyond the house doctor stage also do very well.

What do you do for a living might I ask, and, why are you so concerned about physician compensation????

I don't care how much doctors make, i care about keeping people honest when they throw out misinformation they get from social media by presenting what the actual data is showing.
here is another one, that canada is running out of doctors, when we reached an all time high in 2021 (which was 38% more Doctors per capita in Canada than in 2001), the last date of this data set.


https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Can...2C000%20people.

[LuluBobo]

A core problem in Canada, perhaps the core problem, is the proximity to the US and the financial damage it does.

We can pay doctors more than the UK, France, or Germany, but because we don't pay as much as the States so we get brain drain.

Same problem in tech, finance, or arts.

The proximity has helped a lot, but it's also been a net negative the last 30 years.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

With respect, there is little use trying to compare physician compensation between Canada and Russia or Brazil. There is no danger of mass Canadian physician emigration to these jurisdiction.

The only market for our skills that really matters is the USA. And, currently, there are more physician vacancies in the US than there are physicians in Canada. They could take us all in in one fell swoop if they wanted to.

By this logic, we should be worried about every single job in Canada moving to the US, whether it's doctors, nurses, dentists, teachers, lawyers, engineers, programmers, oil and gas workers, mechanics, custodians, or fast food workers. Pretty sure pretty much every job in existence pays more in the US.

Doesn't seem to be any mass exodus. (There are certainly those leaving to the US but not at some economic apocalyptic level).

[theman23]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

From the perspective of someone toiling away in Academia for 20+ years, and someone that spent 12+ years acquiring university education, I gotta say that these numbers don't look too shabby. Do they leave out the fact about self-funded pensions (re: gross clinical income)?

These are gross incomes, they leave out a lot more than a pension. Try salaries for employees, rents, equipment, paying to keep the lights on, etc.

I made a recent post comparing the incomes of GPs in Canada vs the USA, Australia, and the UK and Canadian GPs make the least. Specialty income numbers are harder to come by. Can repost it, but can just be searched in my post history.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Nite

I don't care how much doctors make, i care about keeping people honest when they throw out misinformation they get from social media by presenting what the actual data is showing.
here is another one, that canada is running out of doctors, when we reached an all time high in 2021 (which was 38% more Doctors per capita in Canada than in 2001), the last date of this data set.

Ah, great, that must be why wait times are the longest they've ever been, while fewer Canadians than ever have a family doctor. I'll remember that stat with a warm feeling in my heart the next time I'm waiting for 6 hours at the walk-in clinic because I don't have access to a family doc.

Also, MonctonRad is a doctor. Pretty sure he has somewhat more informed on this topic and isn't getting his views from social media.

Originally Posted by chowhou

Doesn't seem to be any mass exodus. (There are certainly those leaving to the US but not at some economic apocalyptic level).

It's not apocalyptic just, but it is certainly a growing a trend - and one that I'd expect to pick up further steam as US & Canadian economic fortunes continue to diverge.

[Build.It]

How scalable are physician offices? Ie. If you start your own office, can you not just hire other doctors and staff into perpetuity?

Why is self-employment the only option for most doctors?

If we look at other STEM fields, engineers and accountants can start their own practoces if they want, but most don't and so you have large firms like HATCH, WSP, SNC etc that employ thousands of engineers for example.

What's stopping a doctors office from hiring various specialists to join their team as employees, and then streamline all the backend admin stuff?

[acottawa]

It is an incredibly inefficient system to have individual doctors renting their own office space, paying their own staff, buying their own equipment, etc. It might have made sense 100 years ago when people lived in small towns but makes no sense in a very urban country.

I don't mind paying doctors more, but it should be going into their pockets to encourage them to go into family medicine or to not leave the country, not to inefficient overhead.