Great Canadian Skyline Thread II

[someone123]

Even if all you care about is big and tall buildings the statistics about counts of buildings of a given height don't capture everything. If you look at office market reports, downtown Montreal has almost 2x the leased space of Vancouver. Downtown Vancouver is condo heavy with lots of slender buildings so it looks relatively good on statistics about population densities and building counts.

That said I tend to agree that urbanism-wise, even when it comes to impressive big city feel, these statistics don't mean much. Brentwood and Metrotown look good from afar but sadly there's no there there. Maybe hold off visiting until 2040. On the other hand Mount Pleasant would do poorly on skyscraper metrics (time to put a 60 storey condo on top of the old town hall?) but is more interesting.

[TorontoDrew]

As it should, it's almost double the size population wise.

[Martin Mtl]

:camera: @une_autruche_sur_leau


:camera: @une_autruche_sur_leau

[logan5]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Right, but the crux of the argument is that skylines and tall buildings = bigger city or more urban city, when that really isn't the case. So much of it comes down to built form and density on the ground rather than having more tall buildings. Would be akin to saying Vancouver feels like a bigger city compared to Barcelona because it has taller buildings, or that Mississauga has good urban environment because it has taller buildings. Neither are really true no matter how many tall buildings they have.

Visually, Downtown Vancouver looks bigger than Montreal, but that dense cluster of high rise apartments also equates to a bustling urban realm, and businesses. At street level, downtown Vancouver feels at least as big as Montreal. There are 110 000 people living in the dt peninsula. Somebody who doesn’t know anything about Canada would be hard pressed to distinguish the difference. If anything, Vancouver would come across as the bigger city. (From a downtown perspective).

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by logan5

Visually, Downtown Vancouver looks bigger than Montreal, but that dense cluster of high rise apartments also equates to a bustling urban realm, and businesses. At street level, downtown Vancouver feels at least as big as Montreal. There are 110 000 people living in the dt peninsula. Somebody who doesn’t know anything about Canada would be hard pressed to distinguish the difference. If anything, Vancouver would come across as the bigger city. (From a downtown perspective).

I haven't been to Vancouver but that sounds fairly plausible based on my experience with Montreal. I find downtown Montreal feels "appropriately-sized" for its metro population. What makes the city feel disproportionately large is the extent of it's dense, urban built form extends outside of downtown.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I haven't been to Vancouver but that sounds fairly plausible based on my experience with Montreal. I find downtown Montreal feels "appropriately-sized" for its metro population. What makes the city feel disproportionately large is the extent of it's dense, urban built form extends outside of downtown.

Yeah, I think you nailed it there.

[Martin Mtl]

Montreal’s downtown is densifying right now at a great speed. In a few years, it won’t be the same at all and will feel a lot bigger and impressive. 5 new 200 meters towers, one 185 meters, two 145 meters, a dozen 100-120 meters towers, 15 60-80 meters towers and dozens of mid-rises of 10 stories. All build in a relatively compact aera. That will have a massive impact. Let’s have the same discussion in 2 small years…

Montreal’ downtown population is 90,000, plus 7,000 including Griffintown, plus roughly 40,000 students living downtown, where there is 3 universities plus many colleges. So a total of 137,000. In my neighborhood of Guy-Concordia, the sidewalks are always bustling and crowded with young people of all ethnicities. It really feels like you are in a really really big city. Le Plateau, adjacent to downtown has 100,000 residents. Westmount, link to downtown, has 20,000. Old Montreal has 7,000 residents.

[Acajack]

There are still things in downtown Montreal that fewer cities than you can count on one hand in USA-Canada have, and Vancouver isn't one of them.

One is Sainte-Catherine which is a classic "big city person's big city main street" chock-a-block with the bright lights at night and basically everything one would expect to find on such a street.

There are reasonable facsimiles of these beasts here and there in North America (Vancouver sorta has one) but only a few cities - as I said, less than 5 if we're counting - have the real deal. Montreal does.

If we take away Yonge-Dundas Square (which even so gets mixed reviews), Sainte-Catherine arguably has more of that feel than Yonge or any street in Toronto.

Sherbrooke St. through the downtown also has that airier "big city avenue" feel with grand luxury hotels, shops and buildings (à la Fifth Avenue, Bloor-Yorkville or Magnificent Mile) that again, only a very small handful of NA cities truly pull off.

[vanatox]

Vancouver is really gorgeous and has an impressive core. The city feels bigger than the number would suggest. However, a large part of the downtown peninsula does not actually feel like your are downtown Vancouver IMO. The section with commercial/office towers does not represent the majority of the peninsula.

Downtown Montreal has less condo towers in its downtown but a lot more office space, 4 university campus (UQAM, Mcgill, Concordia, ETS)... Those also contribute to a very lively downtown.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are still things in downtown Montreal that fewer cities than you can count on one hand in USA-Canada have, and Vancouver isn't one of them.

One is Sainte-Catherine which is a classic "big city person's big city main street" chock-a-block with the bright lights at night and basically everything one would expect to find on such a street.

There are reasonable facsimiles of these beasts here and there in North America (Vancouver sorta has one) but only a few cities - as I said, less than 5 if we're counting - have the real deal. Montreal does.

If we take away Yonge-Dundas Square (which even so gets mixed reviews), Sainte-Catherine arguably has more of that feel than Yonge or any street in Toronto.

Sherbrooke St. through the downtown also has that airier "big city avenue" feel with grand luxury hotels, shops and buildings (à la Fifth Avenue, Bloor-Yorkville or Magnificent Mile) that again, only a very small handful of NA cities truly pull off.

Robson Street has the same vibe as Yonge and Sainte Catherine, I would consider them all equal. Toronto and Montreal may have a few other streets with the same feel compared to Vancouver but thats to be expected with larger and older cities. Vancouver on the other hand has suburbs that are more urban than Toronto and Montreal because of a smaller footprint to build. It's burbs feel more urban which ad to how the scale of the city feels. Just take the skytrain from the airport in Vancouver and you pass through built up urban pockets that you would never see that far from Montreal's core, and only in desirable areas with mass transit in Toronto. All three cities have taken different paths. All three are successes that we should be proud of.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Robson Street has the same vibe as Yonge and Sainte Catherine, I would consider them all equal.

If we're actually going to do comparisons like this then i'd say Robson is closer to Bay or Church than Yonge.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vanatox

Vancouver is really gorgeous and has an impressive core. The city feels bigger than the number would suggest. However, a large part of the downtown peninsula does not actually feel like your are downtown Vancouver IMO. The section with commercial/office towers does not represent the majority of the peninsula.

.

In some shots, the Vancouver skyline to me almost looks like a mini Sao Paulo. But a big part of the angle is the angle with which you shoot the sea of condo towers in the west end and lump it together with the CBD. The CBD skyline alone isn't nearly as impressive as the larger whole. And certainly doesn't give off the massive metropolis effect on its own.

I wouldn't disagree that that area (the west end) does have urbanity at street level, but it doesn't really feel as big city urban as a huge part of Montreal outside of downtown, and certainly not like part of a big city CBD.

[TorontoDrew]

Church is a long stretch, but Bay? What the hell is on Bay Street in Toronto? Bank Towers and Condos. Oh and Bay Bloor Radio.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

If we're actually going to do comparisons like this then i'd say Robson is closer to Bay or Church than Yonge.

Church for me. Bay is too sterile and corporate. Church and Robson are more organic and human-oriented.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If we take away Yonge-Dundas Square (which even so gets mixed reviews), Sainte-Catherine arguably has more of that feel than Yonge or any street in Toronto.

Sherbrooke St. through the downtown also has that airier "big city avenue" feel with grand luxury hotels, shops and buildings (à la Fifth Avenue, Bloor-Yorkville or Magnificent Mile) that again, only a very small handful of NA cities truly pull off.

Part of what happened in Vancouver is that the downtown shifted and there isn't much overlap between the busiest modern mixed use or retail areas and where the most impressive historical buildings are. If Main and Hastings were the core of the city today I think it would feel a bit more like Sainte-Catherine.

In Vancouver there has also been a push toward airy building designs with small podiums, or no podium, with a narrow (often "sculptural") tower above. This is a plus for some livability concerns like natural light but does not yield the same city feel (which a lot of the residents of these buildings don't actually want; they want city convenience and scenery/light or investment assets that retain their value). The individual buildings in Toronto or Montreal feel a lot more massive in many cases.

Vancouver also tends to have more glass and less masonry or other heavier looking materials.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Part of what happened in Vancouver is that the downtown shifted and there isn't much overlap between the busiest modern mixed use or retail areas and where the most impressive historical buildings are. If Main and Hastings were the core of the city today I think it would feel a bit more like Sainte-Catherine.

In Vancouver there has also been a push toward airy building designs with small podiums, or no podium, with a narrow (often "sculptural") tower above. This is a plus for some livability concerns like natural light but does not yield the same city feel (which a lot of the residents of these buildings don't actually want; they want city convenience and scenery/light or investment assets that retain their value). The individual buildings in Toronto or Montreal feel a lot more massive in many cases.

Vancouver also tends to have more glass and less masonry or other heavier looking materials.

Now that I think of it, Montreal has had about three downtowns. All three are still alive. It's not unique in this respect of course. It's the same in a number of other cities.

But yeah:

Old Montreal

The modern CBD canyons along René-Lévesque

Ste-Catherine and environs for shopping, nightlife, etc.

[O-tacular]

Comparing Vancouver and Montreal is like apples and oranges. The older parts of Van (ie sketchier but more historic) have more urban grit and weight to them like Montreal does but are more sporadic. I haven't seen the level of crime in the open in Montreal like there is in Gastown where you cross the street and literally everything deteriorates within several hundred feet. Montreal also has more midrises and historic churches.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are still things in downtown Montreal that fewer cities than you can count on one hand in USA-Canada have, and Vancouver isn't one of them.

One is Sainte-Catherine which is a classic "big city person's big city main street" chock-a-block with the bright lights at night and basically everything one would expect to find on such a street.

There are reasonable facsimiles of these beasts here and there in North America (Vancouver sorta has one) but only a few cities - as I said, less than 5 if we're counting - have the real deal. Montreal does.

If we take away Yonge-Dundas Square (which even so gets mixed reviews), Sainte-Catherine arguably has more of that feel than Yonge or any street in Toronto.

Sherbrooke St. through the downtown also has that airier "big city avenue" feel with grand luxury hotels, shops and buildings (à la Fifth Avenue, Bloor-Yorkville or Magnificent Mile) that again, only a very small handful of NA cities truly pull off.

not sure if any corridor / street in Toronto matches Sainte-Catherine but Yonge would be the wrong place to look. Yonge-Dundas is not a good place to visit. Queen West is probably the better comparison, and it's pretty awesome.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

not sure if any corridor / street in Toronto matches Sainte-Catherine but Yonge would be the wrong place to look. Yonge-Dundas is not a good place to visit. Queen West is probably the better comparison, and it's pretty awesome.

Queen West is more like a St-Denis type street to me. Definitely the type of street you have in a big city, but not its main downtown street.

Since Montreal tore up St-Denis over several years and did a lot of damage to businesses there, Queen West is probably the better street at the moment. Even if St-Denis is prettier IMO.

[WhipperSnapper]

Yonge has been block busted. Have to wait five to ten years to find out its outcome.