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  #1801  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2009, 4:31 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Arrow Break the Federal stranglehold on YVR

I've started a new thread about this.

mr.x wisely suggested I started a Facebook page or Wordpress blog, but, being a genereation older than most of you, I'm not sure how to begin.

If anyone's interest in taking their energy over there (if you have time) leaving instructions, and, better still, participating, please, please, do it ! ! !

Thank you all very much.
     
     
  #1802  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2009, 7:45 AM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spork View Post
Subsidized employment is AWESOME! Not.
Perhaps you better reserve that for some of the other top employers in the city:
UBC
VGH
Fraser Health Authority
Providence Health
     
     
  #1803  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2009, 3:33 PM
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It's a good thing that some of the biggest employers in our city are subsidized?
     
     
  #1804  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2009, 5:00 PM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
I've started a new thread about this.

mr.x wisely suggested I started a Facebook page or Wordpress blog, but, being a genereation older than most of you, I'm not sure how to begin.

If anyone's interest in taking their energy over there (if you have time) leaving instructions, and, better still, participating, please, please, do it ! ! !

Thank you all very much.

Trouble is, when my computer goes to "sleep" or I shut it off, my blog requires
my name ("trofirhen") AND my password to get into it. So . . . do I give out my password so that anyone who wants to leave a comment at any time may do so?? Or is this risky?? Please, all you wise techno-minded folks, advise me on this. Thank you. I'm fighting for open skies from Vancouver, and I welcome all to leave posts on my blog, so long as there's no abuse. But should I give out my password? YES? / NO?
     
     
  #1805  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2009, 5:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
Trouble is, when my computer goes to "sleep" or I shut it off, my blog requires
my name ("trofirhen") AND my password to get into it. So . . . do I give out my password so that anyone who wants to leave a comment at any time may do so?? Or is this risky?? Please, all you wise techno-minded folks, advise me on this. Thank you. I'm fighting for open skies from Vancouver, and I welcome all to leave posts on my blog, so long as there's no abuse. But should I give out my password? YES? / NO?
Commenting can be customized such that it can be left anonymously (no password required), or users are required to create an account, which would be separate to your own.
     
     
  #1806  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2009, 6:48 PM
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New parking ticket paying machines are being installed at YVR (for economy parkade)..they are white and not green anymore. I suspect that they will take debit.
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  #1807  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2009, 6:25 PM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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This might be interesting to some. It seems Air Canada's protectionist policies, (or rather, the Canadian government's protectionist policies) are getting noticed elsewhere, too.

http://www.business24-7.ae/Articles/2009/2/Pages/02102009_a48802ebecc0476ca4b98a4551bc4b2b.aspx
     
     
  #1808  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2009, 7:09 AM
Vonny Vonny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
This might be interesting to some. It seems Air Canada's protectionist policies, (or rather, the Canadian government's protectionist policies) are getting noticed elsewhere, too.

http://www.business24-7.ae/Articles/2009/2/Pages/02102009_a48802ebecc0476ca4b98a4551bc4b2b.aspx
Frankly, Emirates is not synonym of fair competition, and I believe it is appropriate policy that to open our airport to a foreign company not obeying to free and undistorted market rules (Emirates is fully owned by the Dubai Emirates) if we can benefit of the liaison to the country, but not appropriate to have this company in competition with private company evolving and an open and undistorted market.

In fact what is almost never noticed is another rule preventing a foreign carrier (US) to offer a fare lower than a domestic carrier on a route. This rule is in effect across the border, and id the main culprit for non competitive price...
     
     
  #1809  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2009, 5:58 PM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Question Please clarify .........................

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vonny View Post
Frankly, Emirates is not synonym of fair competition, and I believe it is appropriate policy that to open our airport to a foreign company not obeying to free and undistorted market rules (Emirates is fully owned by the Dubai Emirates) if we can benefit of the liaison to the country, but not appropriate to have this company in competition with private company evolving and an open and undistorted market.

(trofirhen's response):. . . you mention competition with a private company in an open and "undistorted" market . . . the current market is NOT open, nor is it "UNDISTORTED"

In fact what is almost never noticed is another rule preventing a foreign carrier (US) to offer a fare lower than a domestic carrier on a route. This rule is in effect across the border, and id the main culprit for non competitive price...

(trofirhen's response):. . . a non-competitive price? Which ruse are you referring to? Regarding destinations: Where, please? Could you cite examples?
Excuse me, but I still see no reason why Emirates should be prevented from flying to Vancouver to Dubai.
Air Canada does not want that route.
No other airline serves that route.
Also, how does a given American airline, whether it be Delta, United, Northwest, or Continental, figure into your equation? I would like to understand your argument better, and other readers might like to, also.

Furthermore, if you are refering to AIR CANADA as a private company "evolving," then why can't they serve a huge potential market like Vancouver - to - Paris? Perhaps you could re-explain. I'm sorry but I fail to grasp your logic.
Thank you
     
     
  #1810  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2009, 8:40 PM
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I think what he's trying to say is that Emirates, being wholly owned by the UAE, is apparently heavily subsidized... and undercuts flight prices.

Remember, most people's final destination is not Dubai. Dubai is usually the hub. My guess is that it's likely UAE has special treatment for UAE planes flying into Dubai but not for other carriers.

Of course, this would be fantastic for the consumer.

While that isn't fair it is protectionism either way you look at it. Protectionism isn't always bad, mind you. There are things worth protecting. I just don't know if it's being done the right way with Air Canada.
     
     
  #1811  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2009, 5:00 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
I think what he's trying to say is that Emirates, being wholly owned by the UAE, is apparently heavily subsidized... and undercuts flight prices.

Remember, most people's final destination is not Dubai. Dubai is usually the hub. My guess is that it's likely UAE has special treatment for UAE planes flying into Dubai but not for other carriers.

Of course, this would be fantastic for the consumer.

While that isn't fair it is protectionism either way you look at it. Protectionism isn't always bad, mind you. There are things worth protecting. I just don't know if it's being done the right way with Air Canada.
That seems to clarify it a bit. Thank you
     
     
  #1812  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2009, 5:41 AM
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The BIV story is now online, for those of you who subscribe (about Open Skies). I will try to post it as soon as I can find my subscriber code!
     
     
  #1813  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2009, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
That's the USA's problem, not mine. Air Canada and Korean Airlines do a fine job of serving the Korea-Canada market. There's no reason for Singapore to serve it. If they can't make a go of Canada-Singapore than they really shouldn't be in that business.
One doesn't quite know how to respond to this. SQ obviously couldn't make a go of Canada-Singapore non-stop, which is why they stopped the route. So the result is now less competition to Asia, inconvenience for passengers who must now change planes in the US or via another Asian hub to get to Singapore, and the loss of economic benefits from servicing SQ's flights.

Air Canada doesn't exactly set the bar that high when it comes to perceived customer satisfaction, so your assertion that AC and KE are doing a 'fine job of serving the Korea-Canada market' is questionable at best.

Please tell me how competition is a bad thing?
     
     
  #1814  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2009, 3:22 PM
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BIV article:

Open skies advocated for B.C.

Analysts say Ottawa’s continued focus on preserving Air Canada’s monopoly is stifling international air transportation opportunities in Western Canada

Andrew Petrozzi

Ottawa should negotiate “open-skies” deals between Asian governments and B.C. and Western Canada even if it continues to refuse to open the entire country to international air carriers.

So says Tae Oum, UPS foundation chairman at the University of British Columbia’s Sauder School of Business and president of the Air Transport Research Society.

Oum chaired a recent panel discussion in Vancouver on the economic benefits of open-skies agreements, which give more airlines greater access to the country’s airports.

During a BIV interview, Oum cited the example of a 2006 bilateral agreement between Korea and China that includes transborder open skies between Korea and the Chinese provinces of Sandong and Heinan.

Oum’s suggestion was one among many aimed at realizing gains for B.C. and Western Canada under the federal Conservative government’s 2006 blue-sky policy, which was designed to liberalize Canada’s policies that preserve a monopoly for Air Canada, the country’s former national airline.

While there have been some recent gains (see “Canada-South Korea air agreement to provide $300 million tourism boost to B.C.” – issue 1031; July 28-August 3), many carriers, including Emirates Airlines and Singapore Airlines, want to increase service to Canada in general and B.C. in particular, but their requests have fallen on deaf ears in Ottawa.

Oum said the federal government and Transport Canada need to change their approach to the airline sector.

As an air-transport industry matures, its direct contribution to the economy becomes smaller relative to the size of tourism, foreign trade and direct investment generated by expanded air access.

“We’re spending a lot of time and effort trying to protect this small pie at the expense of consumers and the national economy as a whole including tourism and international trade,” said Oum.

According to Oum, air transportation’s contribution to Canada’s economy was $5.9 billion in 2008 compared with $30 billion for tourism and $932 billion in international trade. He said the antiquated policy of protecting national airlines is inconsistent with maximizing national economic benefits.

Oum added that Canadian air policy needs to become pro-economy and pro-consumer as are policies in jurisdictions like the European Union, the U.S. and Australia.

Andrew Parker, Emirates Airlines’ senior vice-president, also spoke at the September 25 B.C. International Open Skies Summit. He told BIV that his airline has been seeking “reasonable access” to Canada since the late 1990s. But it remains restricted to three flights per week to Toronto. The airline also wants to fly into Vancouver and Calgary.

“Other than Transport Canada and Air Canada, we have met no one who is opposed to letting carriers like Emirates have reasonable access to bringing tourists and carry goods out of Canada in a reasonable way.”


Vancouver is a desired tourist destination, and business connections between the gas and oil industries in Alberta and the Middle East make it a natural choice for direct air flights.

“We are very frustrated that this policy remains that very heavily restricts international carriers from getting access,” said Parker.

He estimated that every landing of a Boeing 777, which is what Emirates flies to Canada, generates about 800 direct employment hours in Canada.

“We would employ thousands of extra people in Western Canada if we were given access,” said Parker. “Clearly we think there would be, in the first 10 years of operations, a multibillion-dollar injection of tourism, exports and direct economic activity.”

Parker said that while summits and the support of provincial premiers such as B.C.’s Gordon Campbell and Alberta’s Ed Stelmach generate momentum, his airline and others who have been “in the queue for a long, long time” are resigned to “continue politely writing letters” to the federal government.

Canada needs to adopt open skies as a principle when negotiating air bilateral agreements with foreign governments, Oum said.

He added that Ottawa must also abolish the confidential addenda connected to bilateral air-services agreements, because they’re “fundamentally undemocratic.”

“Confidential addenda are not about security questions. [They are] about how prices will be regulated, how frequencies and capacity will be regulated and all commercial matters.

“There is virtually nothing about security matters. They are signing confidential agreements to hide true information from independent analysis by academics like myself.”

According to the B.C. government, Canada has 82 bilateral air-service agreements, but only eight classify as open skies. The other 74 have restrictions that prevent airports in Western Canada from competing with airports in the U.S. and Central Canada for international air travel and commerce.

By press time, Transport Canada had not responded to requests for comment from BIV. •

[email protected]
     
     
  #1815  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2009, 5:13 PM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Question Competion? Bad? Let's consider this in more depth . . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hourglass View Post
One doesn't quite know how to respond to this. SQ obviously couldn't make a go of Canada-Singapore non-stop, which is why they stopped the route. So the result is now less competition to Asia, inconvenience for passengers who must now change planes in the US or via another Asian hub to get to Singapore, and the loss of economic benefits from servicing SQ's flights.

Air Canada doesn't exactly set the bar that high when it comes to perceived customer satisfaction, so your assertion that AC and KE are doing a 'fine job of serving the Korea-Canada market' is questionable at best.

Please tell me how competition is a bad thing?


Competition, at least in the airline industry, is a "bad" thing in the minds of protectionists, who have the attitude that national-level jobs must be saved at all costs, and that higher fares and more inconvenience for the travelling public don't matter. They are often people who travel relatively little and have a parochial mindset, out of step with the global world economy, although some are no doubt brilliant, cosmopolitan entrepreneurs.

However, competition can be a bad thing as in the case of the "WAL-MART-ization" of the USA (and coming soon to Canada) where retail giants set up shop, pay low wages, cut costs through massive wholesale buying, and put smaller, often private retailers out of businesses they have hard to build up for years. THAT, however, is an altogether different topic, in a different philosphical domain, and depends on whether you define such a scenario as "bad" or "good."

Back to airlines. . . . . . .
given that Air Canada was once a Crown Corporation (owned and run by the government) had protected jobs, and under the rules of the day was protected from the "invasion" of (eeeek) foreign carriers, this has become something of a Canadian tradition, who are not yet fully comfortable with the "open market" concept, despite NAFTA, the recent EU-Canada Open Skies accord (((which, I hope, will take effect ASAP please Lord oh let Air France and Iberia fly here)))), and
want a "level playing field" for "Canada" which normally means the Ontario-Quebec voting base. (Just ask the Honorable John Baird, after he's had a couple of martinis).

Until we can get around that, Central Canada is going to try every last-ditch attempt to cater to Central Canada voters, and to protect Air Canada, whereas the employees who might lose jobs there would probably find similar work with other airlines, generated by the increased airline traffic flow to the country's major airports - even remote and iconsequential cities like Vancouver ! ! ! !

Alas, this is not the case at the moment.

Miro Cernetig
of the Vancouver Sun recently published an article on the monopoly of Air Canada on routes like Paris-Vancouver (and their refusal to implement it, driving Air France to Seattle, losing us a major carrier and over 200 potential YVR jobs) plus the federal government's refusal to let EMIRATES fly into Vancouver and Calgary, despite the fact that it has no interest in flying to Dubai - a MAJOR tourist and petroleum world business hub - from the West.

I spoke with him on the telephone.
He told me that he received hundreds of emails, about 10 per cent supporting Air Canada and the government's current stance, which, incidentally, were written mostly by Air Canada employees, and the odd protectionist-minded person.

The other 90 per cent had the opportunity for a "let's beat up Air Toronto" (oooooops, I meant Air Canada; sorry) slugfest.

Given the above scenario, although your question might be considered highly subjective, the situations might explain why some people consider competition a "bad" thing.

I hope this has helped.
     
     
  #1816  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2009, 5:13 AM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
...However, competition can be a bad thing as in the case of the "WAL-MART-ization" of the USA (and coming soon to Canada) where retail giants set up shop, pay low wages, cut costs through massive wholesale buying, and put smaller, often private retailers out of businesses they have hard to build up for years. THAT, however, is an altogether different topic, in a different philosphical domain, and depends on whether you define such a scenario as "bad" or "good.".
How can you possibly argue that competition is bad in the case of Wal-Mart but not in the case of air transport?

The BIV article isn't worth the paper its printed on. Oum cites a Korea-China bilateral as an example, while conveniently ignoring that Canad now has Open Skies with Korea (which the article later mentions-sloppy).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hourglass View Post
One doesn't quite know how to respond to this. SQ obviously couldn't make a go of Canada-Singapore non-stop, which is why they stopped the route. So the result is now less competition to Asia, inconvenience for passengers who must now change planes in the US or via another Asian hub to get to Singapore, and the loss of economic benefits from servicing SQ's flights.

Air Canada doesn't exactly set the bar that high when it comes to perceived customer satisfaction, so your assertion that AC and KE are doing a 'fine job of serving the Korea-Canada market' is questionable at best.

Please tell me how competition is a bad thing?
Have you checked the incredible amount of lift Korean and Air Canada offer? Explain again why you think Singapore deserves a bigger share of that? When they walked away from it?

As to Emirates: the ruling family controls the airport, the airline and the oil Hardly a level playing field. Does anybody seriously believe there is a huge untapped market of Emirati wishing to visit Canada They want to use their uncompetitive advantage to skim off traffic from Canadian carriers, which would have a domino effect on services offered within Canada.

Oh, in case folks didn't notice Transat is able to increase service to Paris, but strangely hasn't. Zoom served Paris as well. How'd that work out....
     
     
  #1817  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2009, 8:14 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
As to Emirates: the ruling family controls the airport, the airline and the oil Hardly a level playing field. Does anybody seriously believe there is a huge untapped market of Emirati wishing to visit Canada They want to use their uncompetitive advantage to skim off traffic from Canadian carriers, which would have a domino effect on services offered within Canada.

Oh, in case folks didn't notice Transat is able to increase service to Paris, but strangely hasn't. Zoom served Paris as well. How'd that work out....
It's not that the Emirati want to visit here so much (if at all) it's that Dubai in itself is, despite the current downturn, the new "Petro-Hong-Kong" of the world: a super-important financial and tourist centre.

As for Zoom going under, it was a number of factors, and you can't blame it on the "curse" of flying to Paris. It was a small, family-owned airline that got over-extended.

(Maybe rather like old Wardair, which used to offer EXCELLENT charter service to London, way, way back, but eventually succumbed)

Transat has the right to more frequencies, but won't implement them? OK, but does does it offer YEAR-ROUND service there in the first place, the way Air France does from Seattle?

No. It's summer season only. Paris is a very large destination market. Talk to the Marketing Department at YVR, and they'll tell you that. I have.
     
     
  #1818  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2009, 2:27 PM
Hourglass Hourglass is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
How can you possibly argue that competition is bad in the case of Wal-Mart but not in the case of air transport?

The BIV article isn't worth the paper its printed on. Oum cites a Korea-China bilateral as an example, while conveniently ignoring that Canad now has Open Skies with Korea (which the article later mentions-sloppy).



Have you checked the incredible amount of lift Korean and Air Canada offer? Explain again why you think Singapore deserves a bigger share of that? When they walked away from it?

As to Emirates: the ruling family controls the airport, the airline and the oil Hardly a level playing field. Does anybody seriously believe there is a huge untapped market of Emirati wishing to visit Canada They want to use their uncompetitive advantage to skim off traffic from Canadian carriers, which would have a domino effect on services offered within Canada.

Oh, in case folks didn't notice Transat is able to increase service to Paris, but strangely hasn't. Zoom served Paris as well. How'd that work out....
Some observations:

1/ 13x weekly YVR-ICN between KE and AC during the peak season can hardly be called an 'incredible amount of lift.'

2/ YVR competes as a North American gateway against other US cities such as Seattle, LA and SF, so any disparities in the bilateral agreements with third-party countries has an impact. Canada refuses to allow SQ more 1-stop frequencies? They stop the route and start routing passengers via their LA or SF service. Who loses? Vancouver's economy and the consumer who now has less choice.

3/ No one is advocate sacrificing Air Canada unfairly on the altar of open skies, especially (as you pointed out) their contribution to Vancouver's economy. However, let's face it. Even before the current economic crisis, AC had trimmed long-haul flights from YVR, focusing more on their Toronto hub. Taipei, Osaka, and Fukuoka? All axed. Add to that one other point: AC has also not really utilized their inherent advantage from their YVR hub -- their onward route network in North America -- the way they do at YYZ.

Which is why the refusal by Transport Canada not to grant SQ additional frequencies on SIN-ICN-YVR is so disappointing. 3x weekly is not a viable long-haul service and Singapore Airlines had been working with that for well over 10 years -- so it's not as if they hadn't shown any long-term commitment to Vancouver. Here's a thought: perhaps if AC offered a better overall product, they wouldn't be so afraid of SQ eating their lunch...

EK is a very different case, and I agree with you there.

Last edited by Hourglass; Oct 10, 2009 at 2:39 PM.
     
     
  #1819  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2009, 6:15 PM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hourglass View Post
Some observations:

1/ 13x weekly YVR-ICN between KE and AC during the peak season can hardly be called an 'incredible amount of lift.'
When the markets are Canada and Korea, yes you can call it that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hourglass View Post
...3/ No one is advocate sacrificing Air Canada unfairly on the altar of open skies, especially (as you pointed out) their contribution to Vancouver's economy. However, let's face it. Even before the current economic crisis, AC had trimmed long-haul flights from YVR, focusing more on their Toronto hub. Taipei, Osaka, and Fukuoka? All axed. Add to that one other point: AC has also not really utilized their inherent advantage from their YVR hub -- their onward route network in North America -- the way they do at YYZ.
The market in Japan for travel to Canada has been in free-fall for years. If there was money to be made, AC would still be serving Osaka and Nagoya. Or JAL would be doing it. Or ANA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hourglass View Post
... Here's a thought: perhaps if AC offered a better overall product, they wouldn't be so afraid of SQ eating their lunch...
AC now offers a very good product in both classes. Try an American carrier for comparison. I suppose some might argue that the "Singapore Girls" are some service advantage, but quite frankly I wouldn't want to live in a country where companies are free to turf employees because they are no longer young.
     
     
  #1820  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2009, 6:35 PM
Hourglass Hourglass is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
When the markets are Canada and Korea, yes you can call it that.
Based on what, may I ask? Your opinion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
The market in Japan for travel to Canada has been in free-fall for years. If there was money to be made, AC would still be serving Osaka and Nagoya. Or JAL would be doing it. Or ANA.
And Taiwan has been in free-fall as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
AC now offers a very good product in both classes. Try an American carrier for comparison. I suppose some might argue that the "Singapore Girls" are some service advantage, but quite frankly I wouldn't want to live in a country where companies are free to turf employees because they are no longer young.
Irrelevant. Singapore Airlines' hiring policies have nothing to do with this discussion. We are talking about service standards, and when it comes to Asia, AC isn't competing directly against American carriers. Check out www.airlinequality.com for passenger reviews about Air Canada if you like. A significant proportion of the reviews are appalling.

Where the USA comparison IS relevant is when it comes to air transport policy. That is where YVR currently remains at a disadvantage. And why Air France ended up serving SEA instead of YVR.
     
     
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