ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by pica

Some people are so sensitive.

Yeah, they really can be.

And some people are so delusional.

As in to deride any attempt (no matter how small) at even semi-urban vs. typical mindless development outside of 1/10 of the core ITP.

It's a nice dream, but it's basically mindless.

[clexmond]

Originally Posted by RocketSurgeon

It's also just outside downtown Buford, which has had the audacity of being a city since the 1870s. I guess Atlanta could monopolize urban design by getting a coalition of local governments together and enacting new zoning restrictions across the entire northwest corner of the state--cap density at strip mall levels, ban anything over two stories, require surface parking in front to ensure there will be no small setbacks--but that would be as absurd as it sounds.

It's not "just outside downtown Buford", in fact it's not even inside the city limits. I think you would find a lot of people would be supportive of density in actual downtown Buford as it is already a walkable area with small block sizes. Mall of Georgia, on the other hand, has none of those qualities, not even close.

[Matthew]

People are this excited over the potential sprawl impact of a 5-storey 91,200 square foot office building? There is another office building, of a similar size, on the other side of Highway 20. You can see it from I-85. There is also an AAA International League baseball stadium with apartments built around it (I think they have a mixed-use village proposed?), as well as a technology park and several office/industrial parks. The sprawl is already there. The lake makes this part of Gwinnett attractive. The same is true of Forsyth and Hall.

This appears to be a trend at suburban malls, nationwide. Add apartments and office space, along with extra retail space in the popular lifestyle center format. It allows them to compete with developments like Avalon. This appears to be on an undeveloped site, though? I do think this is needed for the long term health of this mall, which I've heard is the largest taxpayer for the county school system (I haven't checked this claim)?

Gwinnett County recently held some type of meeting, at their Chamber of Commerce, to vision what the county will be like in 25 years. Dense projects like this, retrofitted into current suburban sites, was much of the discussion. They also discussed a future with Gwinnett County as the state's largest county, by population. They are looking into high density. I also see county leaders looking into rail, but I'm not sure if the eastern side of the county, where this mall development is proposed, is ready for that? This could help move them in that direction, though? I've seen two or three high-rise proposals, near this mall, and none of them happened. Maybe this one will? Of Gwinnett's three malls, Mall of Georgia is the county's best mall. If something like this happens at a mall in Gwinnett, it will likely be at Mall of Georgia. I think the time to do something like this at Gwinnett Place has already passed? The county would likely have to step-up in a major way (take most of the risk), to do something like this at Gwinnett Place? The latest ideas I've seen for that area involved a large park space around the mall? There seems to be a lot of talk of trying to urbanize the area around Infinite Energy Arena and I think that could happen. It should be interesting to see how well the county supports this, though? With a recently passed school bond, this would help with tax revenue.

The bigger threat to cause sprawl is what is happening along 400. A tower crane is now in place, to build the first of two 10-storey office towers at Avalon. Yes, a skyline near me! I'm sure this will give Forsyth County a nice boost in growth! A site on Haynes Bridge Road is also ready for construction of an 11-storey office tower, which will be the first of several proposed office buildings on their site. There is also another Avalon-type development proposed in Forsyth County. Now there is talk of rail to Windward Parkway. Forsyth County is already expanding 400, to prepare.

[NYbyWAYofGA]

Originally Posted by Matthew

People are this excited over the potential sprawl impact of a 5-storey 91,200 square foot office building? There is another office building, of a similar size, on the other side of Highway 20. You can see it from I-85. There is also an AAA International League baseball stadium with apartments built around it (I think they have a mixed-use village proposed?), as well as a technology park and several office/industrial parks. The sprawl is already there. The lake makes this part of Gwinnett attractive. The same is true of Forsyth and Hall.

This appears to be a trend at suburban malls, nationwide. Add apartments and office space, along with extra retail space in the popular lifestyle center format. It allows them to compete with developments like Avalon. This appears to be on an undeveloped site, though? I do think this is needed for the long term health of this mall, which I've heard is the largest taxpayer for the county school system (I haven't checked this claim)?

Gwinnett County recently held some type of meeting, at their Chamber of Commerce, to vision what the county will be like in 25 years. Dense projects like this, retrofitted into current suburban sites, was much of the discussion. They also discussed a future with Gwinnett County as the state's largest county, by population. They are looking into high density. I also see county leaders looking into rail, but I'm not sure if the eastern side of the county, where this mall development is proposed, is ready for that? This could help move them in that direction, though? I've seen two or three high-rise proposals, near this mall, and none of them happened. Maybe this one will? Of Gwinnett's three malls, Mall of Georgia is the county's best mall. If something like this happens at a mall in Gwinnett, it will likely be at Mall of Georgia. I think the time to do something like this at Gwinnett Place has already passed? The county would likely have to step-up in a major way (take most of the risk), to do something like this at Gwinnett Place? The latest ideas I've seen for that area involved a large park space around the mall? There seems to be a lot of talk of trying to urbanize the area around Infinite Energy Arena and I think that could happen. It should be interesting to see how well the county supports this, though? With a recently passed school bond, this would help with tax revenue.

The bigger threat to cause sprawl is what is happening along 400. A tower crane is now in place, to build the first of two 10-storey office towers at Avalon. Yes, a skyline near me! I'm sure this will give Forsyth County a nice boost in growth! A site on Haynes Bridge Road is also ready for construction of an 11-storey office tower, which will be the first of several proposed office buildings on their site. There is also another Avalon-type development proposed in Forsyth County. Now there is talk of rail to Windward Parkway. Forsyth County is already expanding 400, to prepare.

Was there any talk of transit...? If not, then those discussions are moot.

[briantech]

Progress on the NCR site. Almost more along than Modera is.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by clexmond

It's not "just outside downtown Buford", in fact it's not even inside the city limits. I think you would find a lot of people would be supportive of density in actual downtown Buford as it is already a walkable area with small block sizes. Mall of Georgia, on the other hand, has none of those qualities, not even close.

...and how dare it even think about having those qualities! The nerve! Those suburbanites should be happy with their strip malls and subdivisions and leave the walkable stuff for the city!

People, it's a very weak stance to argue for low-density, unwalkable development ANYWHERE. This type of development is happening in suburban areas all over the U.S. and I don't understand the opposition to it. Everyone deserves the option of living in a walkable, more urban area - especially in one of Metro Atlanta's core counties. What kind of development would be better suited for this spot? I guess the same people would have argued against such things for Buckhead and Perimeter years ago...or maybe they still do.

It probably won't happen anyway...it's just a proposal. But you should prepare yourselves for more similar proposals in the future. I think most people have caught on that strip malls and other such 80s/90s developments are out of style.

[Matthew]

I've seen many suburbs building these developments, without rail, and they do work well for them. Most likely, the apartments will appeal to the empty nest crowd that moved to Gwinnett in the 1990s and now they want to downsize. They aren't the bar crowd and would prefer something more quiet. They do want yoga in the park, jogging trails, and the restaurants/retail in walking distance. They just don't want the young party crowd and bars. A younger crowd may take an interest, due to the schools (I don't really know anything about the schools there), but I'm guessing a large percentage of the crowd will be empty nesters, who have a more positive view of malls, compared to younger crowds. The office space is about the same size as the typical suburban office buildings in the area, but could keep traffic, generated by the development, low by offering lunch restaurants in walking distance and maybe a few workers will consider the apartments for a walk to work commute? Highway 20 is so crowded! This is really the smart way to add more small suburban office space to that area. It's really not enough office space to make a big impact on anything, though. Just the typical size office buildings in that area. The retail will give Mall of Georgia a nice lifestyle center option, with likely the typical stores seen in suburban lifestyle centers. There are some retailers who only open locations in developments like this. The mall could benefit from having people living and working in walking distance. Urban living in Atlanta offers a different experience than this and as long as these differences exist, Atlanta has nothing to be concerned about. This may help take the "we need noise regulations and these bars should close at 9 p.m., crowd away," allowing Atlanta to be a more active 18 or 24 hour city. I'm learning that many of the people who select suburban living maybe aren't the people we want in our cities. They can become NIMBYs.

[bryantm3]

lol i just want to know whenever i bring up an issue, i get told to take it to the community thread, but you all have been flooding this thread with talk about this development in buford that i honestly don't give a damn about. what's good for the goose is good for the gander; take it elsewhere.

[Vaden]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

This is pretty far away from the center of the metro. We're talking 35-40 miles from downtown Atlanta. This isn't simply building densely in the suburbs...now we're talking the exurbs.

All developments like this do is create a new urban node that creates it's own "small center of gravity" that then forces development to sprawl out again as demand increases within this center of gravity.

This would be different if this was a suburb just 10 miles away from Atlanta(like Perimeter or Smyrna), but this is VERY far away. It's basically sprawl.

Even NYC doesn't really sprawl this far away and it's nearly 5 times the size of the Atlanta metro and it's not like the metro is really hemmed in by mountains like Los Angeles is.

NYC is actually the largest city in terms of developed land area of it's metro. It's more than 3,300 square miles and covers nearly all of Long Island, up into coastal Connecticut, up into southern New York state, and half of northern New Jersey. Atlanta is about 2,600 square miles.

Using 2015 data, NYC metro isn't even 4 times the size of Atlanta, let alone 5 times. It's more like 3.5 times the size. I mean we know it's bigger but let's not exaggerate.

[bigstick]

Originally Posted by briantech

Progress on the NCR site. Almost more along than Modera is.

That is amazing. Modera should have been or close to being topped out already???

[Pemgin]

Isn't the parking podium what's taking Modera so long? Remember, University House rose at a crawl while SQ5 sprouted. Almost the same thing going on now in almost the same exact spot.

[alco89]

Originally Posted by bigstick

That is amazing. Modera should have been or close to being topped out already???

Remember it was nearly October before they finally got the crane up, so it wouldn't be anywhere near topped-out by now.

Originally Posted by Pemgin

Isn't the parking podium what's taking Modera so long? Remember, University House rose at a crawl while SQ5 sprouted. Almost the same thing going on now in almost the same exact spot.

Possibly. Parking podiums always seem to take some time, nevermind the fact Modera was having tower crane issues in the beginning.

[Atlanta3000]

Star Metals Office Building - Howell Mill - Allen Morris

[Atlanta3000]

We should be hearing about this shortly!

[Atlanta3000]

Stratford - Buckhead

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

lol i just want to know whenever i bring up an issue, i get told to take it to the community thread, but you all have been flooding this thread with talk about this development in buford that i honestly don't give a damn about. what's good for the goose is good for the gander; take it elsewhere.

I promise you aren't the only one that gets backlash for off-topic discussions. At any rate, this is a discussion about a specific development and isn't exactly off-topic...but I agree that it has been worn out and it's time to move on.

[cabasse]

atlanta3000 - that first model is just of novare's and related's apartment buildings u/c, right? (or soon to be u/c for the latter)

nevermind - the positioning in relation to oac/mini-me suggests that but the styling suggests othewise

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by cabasse

atlanta3000 - that first model is just of novare's and related's apartment buildings u/c, right? (or soon to be u/c for the latter)

nevermind - the positioning in relation to oac/mini-me suggests that but the styling suggests othewise

That's what it looks like to me as well.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

That's what it looks like to me as well.

It's Phase III

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

That's what it looks like to me as well.

Third. The models just look like 22 14th, whole foods, and Novare in the background, and then the Stratford. Would love to see something new, but it doesn't look like something new.