ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[RocketSurgeon]

I don't understand why people blast suburbs for not having enough density, then when something like this comes along they blast them for having too much. If you're going to build something why not make it dense? Even an area like Midtown relies heavily on commuters and visitors driving in, I don't see how that's a failing. The point of those developments is that the few who live or work there won't need to drive as much, and it's a more efficient use of land.

This isn't a new idea... tiny pockets of density separated by large distances has been a common development pattern for pretty much all of recorded history. People used to need horses to go between them, now they use cars or trains instead. At no time since maybe the Neolithic period have people walked everywhere.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by RocketSurgeon

I don't understand why people blast suburbs for not having enough density, then when something like this comes along they blast them for having too much. If you're going to build something why not make it dense? Even an area like Midtown relies heavily on commuters and visitors driving in, I don't see how that's a failing. The point of those developments is that the few who live or work there won't need to drive as much, and it's a more efficient use of land.

This isn't a new idea... tiny pockets of density separated by large distances has been a common development pattern for pretty much all of recorded history. People used to need horses to get around, now they use cars or trains instead. At no time since maybe the Neolithic period have people walked everywhere.

It seems like an argument with no solution...these suburbs are terrible for their lack of density and walkability, yet when an attempt is made toward improving them it's seen by some as "faux" or contrived. Baffling.

We should be happy for any improvement to any part of Metro Atlanta. It doesn't have to be in our favorite neighborhoods - this will be great for the Buford/Mall of Georgia area.

[testarossa50]

Imagine you're a young professional (say an industrial engineer) who got a job in a chicken processing facility in Jefferson. Wouldn't you be glad there was an option like this?

The lack of walkable, youthful districts in the suburbs is an ill for the entire metro Atlanta area. If we want to grow and attract young people, we need to offer walkable districts young people want to live in throughout the entire region; not just within a three mile radius intown.

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by RocketSurgeon

I don't understand why people blast suburbs for not having enough density, then when something like this comes along they blast them for having too much. If you're going to build something why not make it dense? Even an area like Midtown relies heavily on commuters and visitors driving in, I don't see how that's a failing. The point of those developments is that the few who live or work there won't need to drive as much, and it's a more efficient use of land.

This isn't a new idea... tiny pockets of density separated by large distances has been a common development pattern for pretty much all of recorded history. People used to need horses to go between them, now they use cars or trains instead. At no time since maybe the Neolithic period have people walked everywhere.

This is pretty far away from the center of the metro. We're talking 35-40 miles from downtown Atlanta. This isn't simply building densely in the suburbs...now we're talking the exurbs.

All developments like this do is create a new urban node that creates it's own "small center of gravity" that then forces development to sprawl out again as demand increases within this center of gravity.

This would be different if this was a suburb just 10 miles away from Atlanta(like Perimeter or Smyrna), but this is VERY far away. It's basically sprawl.

Even NYC doesn't really sprawl this far away and it's nearly 5 times the size of the Atlanta metro and it's not like the metro is really hemmed in by mountains like Los Angeles is.

[skyscraper_inspector]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

This is pretty far away from the center of the metro. We're talking 35-40 miles from downtown Atlanta. This isn't simply building densely in the suburbs...now we're talking the exurbs.

All developments like this do is create a new urban node that creates it's own "small center of gravity" that then forces development to sprawl out again as demand increases within this center of gravity.

This would be different if this was a suburb just 10 miles away from Atlanta(like Perimeter or Smyrna), but this is VERY far away. It's basically sprawl.

Even NYC doesn't really sprawl this far away and it's nearly 5 times the size of the Atlanta metro and it's not like the metro is really hemmed in by mountains like Los Angeles is.

Agreed. Dense development needs to happen closer to existing transit and other high-density areas so that connectivity is more efficient.

[shivtim]

An SAP permit was filed for a new townhome development at 425 Gartrell St SE. This is within the Beltline TAD and just 2 blocks from both the streetcar (to the north) and the MLK MARTA station (to the south).

Permit filed to renovate the building at 741 Edgewood, just south of Krog St Market.

Building permits filed for 18 townhomes at 1463 La France st, immediately south of the Edgewood Candler Park MARTA station.

[jddar]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

This is pretty far away from the center of the metro. We're talking 35-40 miles from downtown Atlanta. This isn't simply building densely in the suburbs...now we're talking the exurbs.

All developments like this do is create a new urban node that creates it's own "small center of gravity" that then forces development to sprawl out again as demand increases within this center of gravity.

This would be different if this was a suburb just 10 miles away from Atlanta(like Perimeter or Smyrna), but this is VERY far away. It's basically sprawl.

Even NYC doesn't really sprawl this far away and it's nearly 5 times the size of the Atlanta metro and it's not like the metro is really hemmed in by mountains like Los Angeles is.

EDIT: disregard this post. I mistakenly thought this development was at Gwinnett Place
It's actually 24-miles from Five Points and 22-miles from 10th Street and Peachtree to Gwinnett Place.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by jddar

It's actually 22-miles from 10th Street and Peachtree Street.

10th and Peachtree is Midtown, not Downtown.

I get 35 miles from Five Points to Mall of Georgia on Google Maps.

[jddar]

Originally Posted by jsvh

10th and Peachtree is Midtown, not Downtown.

I get 35 miles from Five Points to Mall of Georgia on Google Maps.

Sorry, I mistakenly thought this development was at Gwinnett Place.

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

I think the issue isn't that density can't exist outside of the core of the city it is that this is so far outside the core. Random patches density sprawling out into the exurbs is just going to create another cycle of people going further out with suburban sprawl. The people who like the suburbs aren't going to be happy with a approximately 16 story high-rise in the area. There is also still plenty of space in the closer-in suburbs that could actually benefit the density. This project would fit in well in Gwinnett Place mall especially with the possibility of Marta extending up to there if Gwinnett joins Marta.

Also I find it doubtful that the people living there will spend most their time walking I just don't see this being able to cover all the basic retail necessities. It will probably be specialty retail that you wouldn't go to on a daily basis and so the net effect is people will be driving to it or the people living there will be driving to other areas.

I'd be surprised if any of them would even walk to the Mall of Georgia. It is not really designed well for pedestrians, seas of parking lots front the mall from every direction, and the same thing goes for all the stores surrounding the mall. When the temperature gets up you need some shade trees and not to trek through sweltering asphalt.

[ATL_J]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

This is pretty far away from the center of the metro. We're talking 35-40 miles from downtown Atlanta. This isn't simply building densely in the suburbs...now we're talking the exurbs.

All developments like this do is create a new urban node that creates it's own "small center of gravity" that then forces development to sprawl out again as demand increases within this center of gravity.

This would be different if this was a suburb just 10 miles away from Atlanta(like Perimeter or Smyrna), but this is VERY far away. It's basically sprawl.

Even NYC doesn't really sprawl this far away and it's nearly 5 times the size of the Atlanta metro and it's not like the metro is really hemmed in by mountains like Los Angeles is.

Again, I'm not sure where you're coming with these ideas. The fact that it is 35-40 miles outside of Atlanta is the whole point this makes sense. It is practically the distance from Downtown Baltimore to Downtown DC.

This isn't creating something out of nothing, as I've said multiple times. There are significant office markets in the northern suburbs. For example, North Fulton alone has more Class A office space than Downtown, Buckhead, and slightly less than Midtown. It is a sizable market that exists and can't be ignored - it isn't going away. There are people who work there that commute long distances, creating traffic and all the ills people rail against, who would happily live in a development like this if it existed. It would help reduce traffic and create a walkable "core" that future development can build around.

These sort of cores exists all over the place - NYC, DC, etc. Often they're linked by rail, transit, etc. But to imply you shouldn't build these sort of developments near large concentrations of jobs simply because those rail lines or transit don't exist yet is short sighted and irrational.

And in what world do you think NYC doesn't have sprawl like this? People commute 40-50+ miles out to NYC from Connecticut & New Jersey. The difference is you view them as older, established quaint towns, and Suwanee & Buford as exurban sprawl, but outside of transit connectivity, they're the same sort of bedroom communities that also have local office markets.

We should want these suburban and exburban communities to densify in order to provide nodes where transit (in whatever form) can effectively reach, as well provide communities that people can live in that doesn't require them to drive 1+ hour to commute to a job.

[ATL_J]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaPeanuts

I think the issue isn't that density can't exist outside of the core of the city it is that this is so far outside the core. Random patches density sprawling out into the exurbs is just going to create another cycle of people going further out with suburban sprawl. The people who like the suburbs aren't going to be happy with a approximately 16 story high-rise in the area. There is also still plenty of space in the closer-in suburbs that could actually benefit the density. This project would fit in well in Gwinnett Place mall especially with the possibility of Marta extending up to there if Gwinnett joins Marta.

Also I find it doubtful that the people living there will spend most their time walking I just don't see this being able to cover all the basic retail necessities. It will probably be specialty retail that you wouldn't go to on a daily basis and so the net effect is people will be driving to it or the people living there will be driving to other areas.

I'd be surprised if any of them would even walk to the Mall of Georgia. It is not really designed well for pedestrians, seas of parking lots front the mall from every direction, and the same thing goes for all the stores surrounding the mall. When the temperature gets up you need some shade trees and not to trek through sweltering asphalt.

Some of you act like the entire City of Atlanta is some walkable oasis. What reality do you live in? Outside of Midtown and portions of Buckhead the majority of the City of Atlanta is exactly how you describe this location, "specialty retail that you wouldn't go to on a daily basis". Some of you are letting your biases get in the way of reasonable thought.

This location is a mile from a grocer store, which is currently closer than me, and I live in a "hip urban neighborhood". The stores around the mall have everything you'd need. That isn't implying everyone is walking to all these stores, but the fact is most people even in the most urban areas of Atlanta aren't walking for all their needs.

And again, this is a great start - you have to start somewhere. There have been plenty of quality suburban mall retrofits, they can build on the parking lots in the future, or development can spring up around this development to make to create even more of a core.

I hate defending a suburban mall development, but sheesh.

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaPeanuts

I think the issue isn't that density can't exist outside of the core of the city it is that this is so far outside the core. Random patches density sprawling out into the exurbs is just going to create another cycle of people going further out with suburban sprawl. The people who like the suburbs aren't going to be happy with a approximately 16 story high-rise in the area. There is also still plenty of space in the closer-in suburbs that could actually benefit the density. This project would fit in well in Gwinnett Place mall especially with the possibility of Marta extending up to there if Gwinnett joins Marta.

Also I find it doubtful that the people living there will spend most their time walking I just don't see this being able to cover all the basic retail necessities. It will probably be specialty retail that you wouldn't go to on a daily basis and so the net effect is people will be driving to it or the people living there will be driving to other areas.

I'd be surprised if any of them would even walk to the Mall of Georgia. It is not really designed well for pedestrians, seas of parking lots front the mall from every direction, and the same thing goes for all the stores surrounding the mall. When the temperature gets up you need some shade trees and not to trek through sweltering asphalt.

Exactly this. You're just inviting more sprawl. Transit will NEVER make it's way up here unless it's in the form of commuter rail, but I'm not sure if there's even an old train line that commuter rail could make us of in this area.

[BlueSangha]

Blah blah blahblah blah blah...

[jpk1292000]

Does anyone know anything about this? They did a ton of work grading and putting up a massive retaining wall last year, but it seems like not much is happening on the site recently.

[pica]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

I'm not sure I follow your logic. These developments are catered to people who work in the area.

Office developments don't just cater to people who live in the area. It's unlikely that all the businesses in those offices will be staffed by people who live even remotely within walking distance. So they'll be able to walk from the parking lot to their office door. That's drive-to walkability.

[atlantaguy]

And all of our little urbanista's have spoken re: Gwinnett.

How cute that they are all endorsing more low density sprawl.

[NickH]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

And all of our little urbanista's have spoken re: Gwinnett.

How cute that they are all endorsing more low density sprawl.

[pica]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

And all of our little urbanista's have spoken re: Gwinnett.

How cute that they are all endorsing more low density sprawl.

Some people are so sensitive.

[RocketSurgeon]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

We're talking 35-40 miles from downtown Atlanta. This isn't simply building densely in the suburbs...now we're talking the exurbs.

It's also just outside downtown Buford, which has had the audacity of being a city since the 1870s. I guess Atlanta could monopolize urban design by getting a coalition of local governments together and enacting new zoning restrictions across the entire northwest corner of the state--cap density at strip mall levels, ban anything over two stories, require surface parking in front to ensure there will be no small setbacks--but that would be as absurd as it sounds.