Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[bob rulz]

Originally Posted by Marvland

Bob, no disrespect but I think you need to get out more. SLC's downtown scene is great. The bar/food density of 300 S./Main/State is as concentrated as you'll find in any market, period. I go to most of the cities that people mention on this forum multiple times per year. Our cocktail scene is one of the best for our market size in the USA and our touring music scene is untouchable. No, we don't have the bubble of some other markets but because of that we don't have the constant rash of closings/openings and space churn. (You shoulda seen our bars this week). Many do NYC downtown types of numbers consistently but our rent is 25% of theirs and it won't stop until President's Day. Alas, we are a ski town and we die in April. Sometimes I get the sense that the people who complain the most aren't out and about. Go, get out there and spend your money, support your neighbors who are risking their livelihoods to provide cultural amenities to our city. "Be the change that you want to see.".

I'm not really sure why you're telling me to get out more, I'm the one who's defending Salt Lake City. Trust me, I've been to the bars downtown on weekends. I know they're always packed!

But you're not wrong. I do need to get out more. Unfortunately my financial situation basically makes that impossible at the moment. I work downtown though and I definitely see what goes on down there.

[bob rulz]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

4 out of 7 people in Down town Salt Lake who are on the public sidewalks are panhandlers... that’s how few people we have. When I walk to the store on a Sunday it’s like the twilight zone.

Sorry but I call bullshit. I work downtown. Yes there are a lot of panhandlers, but 4 out of 7? Give me a break.

I do like how you're using Sundays as the example though. City Creek and several other places are closed on Sunday, so of course there's going to be fewer people downtown.

[Marvland]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

I'm not really sure why you're telling me to get out more, I'm the one who's defending Salt Lake City. Trust me, I've been to the bars downtown on weekends. I know they're always packed!

But you're not wrong. I do need to get out more. Unfortunately my financial situation basically makes that impossible at the moment. I work downtown though and I definitely see what goes on down there.

More of a response to this: "There is no way that SLC is equivalent in downtown vibrancy or urbanity to Spokane, or even Boise.". I'm just saying SLC has a strong downtown scene, improving weekly. I know of at least eight upcoming bar and restaurant openings in the horn in CBD. I love Boise BTW. One of the great sleeper towns in America, along with Des Moines, Hartford, Omaha and Charleston. Never been to Spokane.

[scottharding]

I've been to Spokane a number of times and it's fine, but it's got nothing on Salt Lake.

[airhero]

What are these 8 upcoming bars? I’ve been surprised by the bar scene here. Wasn’t too much into it until a few months ago, but it’s a nice scene and maybe one of the better things about Salt Lake life imo. I’d be interested to know what everyone’s favorite bars are.

[scottharding]

Poplar Pub. Beer Hive. Piper Down.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Stenar

This is pretty accurate. Throw in the fact that downtown isn't very suited towards raising large families and everyone wants a yard for their kids to throw a ball around in, and you end up with suburban sprawl.

Well this is what I've been saying for years now. Salt Lake's market is tailored toward suburban families. It's why, when we were only growing due to births and not migration, I said that type of growth was not sustainable. I stand by that. Fortunately, Salt Lake appears to be attracting more outsiders - but will it be enough to change the mindset locally?

It's great we're seeing minor residential development. Problem is, it's all just infill. Infill is great, and extremely important, but there's a reason downtown Salt Lake City feels smaller than it should for a CSA our size.

I bring up Spokane and Boise as a bit of hyperbole but at the end of the day, go view the residential development in the Boise thread and compare it to what we're seeing in Salt Lake. It's pretty much the exact same type of development. Often cheap. Often small. Often around four-stories - sometimes only two or three.

Salt Lake lags behind similar sized cities. I don't care what anyone says. Especially when you factor in the local job market and the cost of living here.

Like I said, give me those additional developments I mentioned in my post and I'll be inclined to feel good about the projects we're seeing as a city. But let's be honest, how many of us really believe those projects will start construction in 2018?

I'm skeptical.

[Liberty Wellsian]

A little perspective on SLC proper

population
1960 189,454
1970 175,885
1980 163,034
1990 159,936
2000 181,743
2016 193,744 (estimated)

[Marvland]

Originally Posted by airhero

What are these 8 upcoming bars? I’ve been surprised by the bar scene here. Wasn’t too much into it until a few months ago, but it’s a nice scene and maybe one of the better things about Salt Lake life imo. I’d be interested to know what everyone’s favorite bars are.

A number in the works, most in quiet phase but moving fast. Of the ones that will open in the next few months that I can talk about: Quarters arcade bar (the old Manhattan Club - CAN'T WAIT), Nice & Easy (same block, amazing barmen), Takashi's izakaya bar (former Christoph's, again, CAN'T WAIT). Like I said that 300 S.- 400 S. block is insane and getting more so.

Choosing my favorite bars is hard, like choosing my favorite children but here's a go in no particular order. In full disclosure I own a bar so I'll leave it out (it's just okay anyway):

Under Current (one of the best cocktail bars on Earth IMHO).
Fisher
Duffy's
Tap Room
Copper Common
I love the standing bar at Bodega/The Rest
Tinwell
Proper Brewing
Ruin
Bar X, Beer Bar
Piper Down
Juniors
Lake Effect
White Horse
Jackalope
Cheers to You
Twilite Lounge
X Wife's Place
Good Grammar
East Liberty Tap House
Finca (great bar program in a Retaurant)
HSL (Same as above)
Dick and Dixies
Republican
Trails (great steaks special on Fridays. And other things)
Poplar
Red Rock, because beer

I could go on but that will only further illustrate my drinking problem.

[Marvland]

A great article on Quarters Arcade Bar in the Tribune:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/12/31/whatever-happened-to-salt-lake-citys-manhattan-club/

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Sorry but I call bullshit. I work downtown. Yes there are a lot of panhandlers, but 4 out of 7? Give me a break.

I do like how you're using Sundays as the example though. City Creek and several other places are closed on Sunday, so of course there's going to be fewer people downtown.

I live Down town, and I walk around quite a bit... not just during lunch and when everyone is coming and going to work.

I wasn’t using Sunday as an example for the 4 out of 7 comment. In fact there are much less homeless people hanging around Down town on Sundays.

The 4 out of 7 comment is not to be taken literally for all day, every day... but there are many times when walking down Main Street really is that bad... and I’ve seen it even worse than that at times.

Downtown really does seem like the twilight zone on Sundays. And the fact that city creek center is closed isn’t really an excuse for the point of my comment... The point of the comment is that downtown Salt Lake is not a very vibrant place. There just isn’t a lot of people there... if there was a huge demand for places to be open on Sunday there would be plenty of businesses outside of city Creek Center... even Apple finds it acceptable to close their salt lake store on Sunday.

Hell. I live downtown, and I have a hard time hanging out here because there’s not much to do. We don’t even have a decent movie theater... even getto ass South Salt Lake is getting a decent movie theater with the century 16 being renovated... there are a few cool museums in the zoo up around the U... but public transportation to the area sucks.

I tried getting the UTA hive pass and dropped it after a month because it sucked. I go to the zoo and stuff allot and figured it might be nice to start taking uta... but they don’t even stop at the zoo. The closest they get is this is the place monument... and that’s only if yo leave at like 8 in the morning. Others then that you have to walk from research place, witch isn’t close. What drives me nuts is the bus will sit at that stop for 20 minuets... why don’t they just make an extra stop at this is the place and also right at the zoo in that 20 minuts... they are both places of interest... Sunday is even worse. You have to take trax to 2100 s then get on some bus that goes up 2100 south and let’s you off on fort union... a joke

K now I’ve tuned this in to a uta rant, hahah

[Comrade]

Downtown has a weird vibe. There are pockets of it that feel like a bustling urban center. Then you go a block over and it's absolutely dead. A few weeks ago, for work, a few managers went to Red Rock and then to an escape room located in the old Firestone building across from Pioneer Park. This was during the workday. Around lunch hour. The area was dead beyond the traffic. Zero foot traffic in any area. Of course, it was the middle of winter but that's even the vibe often during the summer.

That's the biggest rub against downtown right now, IMO. Main Street is fairly active. The city has done a good job, over the last three mayoral administrations, investing there. But because the attention has been nearly universally that area of the city, we've kinda neglected other areas. To the city's credit, eastern downtown has way more vibrancy during the day, even on weekdays, than western downtown.

But what are we doing to build up western downtown? There's projects there - except we've seen a steady stream of projects in the area since I joined this forum years ago. The vibrancy and activity, though, has not changed. Western downtown, from West Temple to the Gateway, is just as dead today as it was in the early 00s when the Gateway opened. This despite having the Gateway, plenty of hotels, the convention center, bars, new residential development and maybe the biggest of 'em all - Vivint Arena.

It's a big reason why I hope Block 67 happens and it's not just some pipe dream or something only half-fulfilled. It needs to be developed to its end stage. And it's also why I am a proponent of building the convention center hotel around that area instead of South Temple because I know it'll only help bridge the gap between Main and 400 West (if that ever happens).

And of course, it'd be nice if Air Center had even lived up to its original plans instead of becoming yet another lost project in the ever growing list of 'what ifs'. I pray Millennium Tower isn't another one of those grand visions that, in good ol' SLC fashion, fails. But that land seems cursed so, I am not holding my breath that this turns out any differently than Air Center.

Hope I'm wrong.

[Utah_Dave]

You would think 400s between downtown and the university would be a natural hotspot for activity/ nightlife scene. It has a daytime shopping scene and plenty of cars but a surprising lack of a college vibe. It's getting better then it was but our city has plenty of work to do and an untapped resource with the U so close.

[Ironweed]

Happy New Year everyone.

I think this has been brought up before, and I am likely preaching to the choir: The days of the Wasatch Front being a bucolic, quaint, suburban community are over. For whatever reason, the locals clearly did not envision the type of growth we're experiencing. If they did, then they are stupid. The planning for growth up to this point has been poorly done. It could be an issue of "I have a large lot, house, big diesel truck, so growth don't affect me." 🤯

I suppose sprawl would not be an issue if we had no geographic obstacles. Reality is, we have a basin. The current suburban sprawl mindset will lead to abysmal failure. Urban planning is critical. It starts with quality, high density, urban centers. It also starts with us. We need to do all we can to create positive change. Broken record I know. Let's make it happen!

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Comrade

...

And of course, it'd be nice if Air Center had even lived up to its original plans instead of becoming yet another lost project in the ever growing list of 'what ifs'. I pray Millennium Tower isn't another one of those grand visions that, in good ol' SLC fashion, fails. But that land seems cursed so, I am not holding my breath that this turns out any differently than Air Center.

Hope I'm wrong.

No, the new project being built on that site is better than the "Air Center" ever was going to be.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Stenar

No, the new project being built on that site is better than the "Air Center" ever was going to be.

Might sound like a better idea... but that’s the problem. All we really have is developers with good ideas who lay down the cash for the property and a design firm... but when it comes time to build, no one wants to invest. The only one who had really made considerable investments is the LDS Church, and that just is enough for Salt Lake to grow in a way that we would all like.

Eventually the property ends up in the hands of lowball investors that want to build 5-10 story uninspiring Apartments, small hotels and government buildings.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Might sound like a better idea... but that’s the problem. All we really have is developers with good ideas who lay down the cash for the property and a design firm... but when it comes time to build, no one wants to invest. The only one who had really made considerable investments is the LDS Church, and that just is enough for Salt Lake to grow in a way that we would all like.

Eventually the property ends up in the hands of lowball investors that want to build 5-10 story uninspiring Apartments, small hotels and government buildings.

In the case of the Air Center/Millenium it went from the hands of a tech dreamer to a deep pocketed LA developer that specializes in office space. Nothing against dreamers but the project seems way more likely to get done now.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Stenar

No, the new project being built on that site is better than the "Air Center" ever was going to be.

Nothing has been built on this site (or is being built at this moment) so I can't agree with that statement. IF it's built, then I would agree. If we go 0-2 on that site, which I think is likely in the end because that's generally how Salt Lake works (or the project will be mothballed for years), then no, it's rather silly to say it's better - 0x0 is still zero.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

In the case of the Air Center/Millenium it went from the hands of a tech dreamer to a deep pocketed LA developer that specializes in office space. Nothing against dreamers but the project seems way more likely to get done now.

Sure. But it's still probably unlikely to get done.

For every major project that actually gets built, there's three-plus projects that never get beyond the planning stage or are drastically downsized upon completion.

So, as much as we want these projects developed, history tells us there's a better chance nothing is built than built. In fact, when you take away LDS Church developed high-rises (like 111 South Main, which switched from Hamilton Partners to the LDS Church's City Creek Reserve), the last project fully developed was 222 South Main in 2009, nearly ten years ago. And that project's journey was long and drawn out, too, as it was initially proposed back before the Winter Olympics, the site demolished, which then had those temporary business fronts added (initially just for the Olympics...but then it went longer due to the tower taking forever to develop) and sat dormant for years until a downsized version of the tower was built (initially it was going to have residential at the top and was planned at 28 stories, I believe). Before that, it was the Grand American in 2001. So, in the last 17 years, Salt Lake City has had two high-rises built that weren't developed by the LDS Church.

In that span, we've had many proposals, some still technically in the proposal state and some (like Zion Social Hall Center or whatever it was called) completely abandoned.

The LDS Church properties count, of course, but their track record of developing actual proposals dwarfs any potential developer looking to build in Salt Lake City.

And that's why I'm skeptical of any major project. Still waiting on the 151 Tower on State Street - or at least news on it. But alas...

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Comrade

It's a big reason why I hope Block 67 happens and it's not just some pipe dream or something only half-fulfilled. It needs to be developed to its end stage. And it's also why I am a proponent of building the convention center hotel around that area instead of South Temple because I know it'll only help bridge the gap between Main and 400 West (if that ever happens).

I think phase 1 of 67 does happen... however. I think it will probably be dramatically downscaled. Probably 6-7 stories max, and a lot more stucco... phase 2 might get as far as ripping down RWP, but I bet the construction never sees the light of day... then one or two years after it flops another developer will buy the property and either build a six story apartment building or eight story hotel.

Has it ever been confirmed or denied that the Regent Street hotel project is a flop?

I wonder if the church has also pushed back plans for the Cascade. Haven’t they reached the 80% capacity... honestly I bet if they started building the cascade right now and came in at a similar price point to the regent or even a little bit lower... it would probably reach full capacity before 99 and Richards.