The Climate Change Discussion Thread

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

In a lot of ways electric cars are just going to continue car culture/suburbs.

Sort of, there's still a space/density tradeoff that makes owning and operating a vehicle pretty expensive.

In a world with all electric self driving taxis, urban life may become cheaper and more appealing.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

In a lot of ways electric cars are just going to continue car culture/suburbs.

Absolutely. Nobody should think electric cars solve everything, despite what Elon Musk says.

They are still cars. And they are incredibly damaging to cities. Especially those built around the car.

But it is a part of the solution. And it's certainly better than continuing to use gas and diesel cars.

[Chadillaccc]

The morons running Alberta have put a pause on coal exploration in the foothills and other provincial parks. At least that's one thing they've done half right, after widespread public pressure.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

.
In a world with all electric self driving taxis, urban life may become cheaper and more appealing.

Urban planners are sounding the alarm on AVs. The fear is that they will bring sprawl on steroids.

If I can sleep for 1 hr in my car, commuting 100 km is not going to be an issue.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Urban planners are sounding the alarm on AVs. The fear is that they will bring sprawl on steroids.

If I can sleep for 1 hr in my car, commuting 100 km is not going to be an issue.

If it what the people want then ?

So long as the negative externalities are appropriately taxed, then if someone wants to live in a suburb, does an urban planner deserve the right to stop them?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by milomilo

If it what the people want then ?

So long as the negative externalities are appropriately taxed, then if someone wants to live in a suburb, does an urban planner deserve the right to stop them?

Externalities are not taxed at all. The EV mafia freaks out at any suggestion of a road usage tax. Property taxes are based purely on land value, not usage or frontage. Cities are expected to bear all of the urban costs for homelessness and addiction issues while exurbanites contribute SFA.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Urban planners are sounding the alarm on AVs. The fear is that they will bring sprawl on steroids.

If I can sleep for 1 hr in my car, commuting 100 km is not going to be an issue.

Yeah, some urban planners are. But some of these are the same people that think we need to be riding bike everywhere.

Getting rid of the concept of a private car would free up a ton of resources, including land and space for driving around cities, as well as the cost of maintenance (which could be spent on other productive uses).

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Externalities are not taxed at all. The EV mafia freaks out at any suggestion of a road usage tax. Property taxes are based purely on land value, not usage or frontage. Cities are expected to bear all of the urban costs for homelessness and addiction issues while exurbanites contribute SFA.

Then tax those externalities. The option is there, we just don't. I agree about charging EVs something in line with the non-CO2 damage they cause. But politicians shouldn't blame EVs for their complete failure in other areas.

Other than climate change, housing prices are the biggest issue Canadians face, and realistically the latter is the thing that actually affects people. Conceptually, housing prices should be an easier problem to solve but because of economy wide NIMBYism/selfishness, the only place where it is remotely affordable to build housing is on the edge of cities. So while sprawl isn't great, I'm kind of over being upset about it. If urban planners are mad that people don't want to live in their creations, they should look in the mirror and ask why the only thing they can offer is a shoebox for a million dollars.

[goodgrowth]

I'd argue a lot of problems are rooted in municipal planning. We've been zoning for cars for decades. And our solution to all the problems that come with it? Wait decades for EV's to come online, use carbon taxes, let housing costs soar, traffic, traffic deaths, etc

It's almost like we'd rather put up with all these problems and use these small workarounds than tackle fundamental planning problems. I'm not even against SFH or suburbs but I am against basically legislating it and preventing other shit that might get built if were allowed.

[milomilo]

Our urban planning essentially boils down to banning everything except for the specific thing that a parcel of land is zoned for, meeting specific requirements, and even then still needs a stamp of approval from "stakeholders". It's no wonder it fails.

EVs help solve the climate change problem. If they become so affordable that they enable sprawl without the carbon emissions associated with driving, I can't say I'm too upset about that since the barriers to building density and transit in our cities are self inflicted.

[Bcasey25raptor]

We've reached peak carbon, emissions globally will go down from this point. Climate change will be a self correcting problem.

I always find the alarmism to be over the top when the nuanced reality is that we're actually making progress and I think we'll be fine.

https://grist.org/climate/was-2020-t...bon-emissions/

[MolsonExport]

without scientists sounding the alarm on where we are heading, would there be the impetus and political will to make the changes necessary to avoid the worst outcomes (which, to be clear, we are still on the past towards achieving)?

If we stop all emissions today, the sea levels will still rise for at least another century, albeit more slowly. And sea level change is far from being the only serious repercussion of climate change. From an entirely selfish perspective, climate change is an extremely expensive crisis to manage, even if doing nothing to address the sources of the problem.

open access article in Nature: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-66275-4

[ssiguy]

[QUOTE=Truenorth00;9259201]Let's be honest. We're doing this stuff to give our oil sector a bit of hope.

What's wrong with that?

The oil sector employs million of people in NA alone and to just expect these people to gleefully lose their jobs is both irresponsible and highly insensitive. These dreaded oil workers have families to support with the same hopes and aspirations for their children as any Green Party members.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with oil. It's a naturally produced commodity and Mother Nature doesn't make mistakes. Saying oil is bad is akin to saying sand also is. The problem is not the commodity but rather how we CHOOSE to use it.............we take it from the ground and stick it in the air.

We do not have to change oil but rather how we CHOOSE to both produce and use it. Oil is a great energy provider and we have enough on this planet to last us til the end of time. The goal should not be how to get rid of oil but rather how to use it's huge potential but this time without effecting the environment.

Proton Energy of Calgary is an excellent example of how we can do this by using all those oil wells to create hydrogen but not a drop of carbon actually reaches the surface.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The oil sector employs million of people in NA alone and to just expect these people to gleefully lose their jobs is both irresponsible and highly insensitive. These dreaded oil workers have families to support with the same hopes and aspirations for their children as any Green Party members.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with oil. It's a naturally produced commodity and Mother Nature doesn't make mistakes. Saying oil is bad is akin to saying sand also is. The problem is not the commodity but rather how we CHOOSE to use it.............we take it from the ground and stick it in the air.

We do not have to change oil but rather how we CHOOSE to both produce and use it. Oil is a great energy provider and we have enough on this planet to last us til the end of time. The goal should not be how to get rid of oil but rather how to use it's huge potential but this time without effecting the environment.

Proton Energy of Calgary is an excellent example of how we can do this by using all those oil wells to create hydrogen but not a drop of carbon actually reaches the surface.

On one hand you're saying "think about all of the jobs in the oil sector", as if implying that they can't be retrained or retooled into different sectors.

On the other hand you're saying "hey look at this hydrogen sector", as if implying that oil jobs can be retrained and retooled into a different sector.

People can be retrained or can focus on different sectors. There are very few people employed in oil and gas who are so incredibly specialized that their skills wouldn't apply anywhere else, and they could very easily transition to cleaner energy sectors like hydrogen, solar, or wind, if they really wanted to stay in energy.

Yes, there's nothing wrong with oil and gas. There's a whole lot wrong with the oil and gas extraction industry. That's kind of the point. Nobody's saying there's anything wrong with oil itself (you're setting up a strawman argument there), but that there's a lot wrong with pulling it out of the ground and burning it.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

What's wrong with that?

Other than the emissions? Not much.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Proton Energy of Calgary is an excellent example of how we can do this by using all those oil wells to create hydrogen but not a drop of carbon actually reaches the surface.

The question is one of scalability and competitiveness. Can they actually compete when emissions are accounted for? Especially in an export market against on site generation with renewables?

[Airboy]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

The morons running Alberta have put a pause on coal exploration in the foothills and other provincial parks. At least that's one thing they've done half right, after widespread public pressure.

Grassy mountain will go ahead but all the others are on hold. However driving from Jasper I noticed the coal mines are all going full steam. and the new Vista Mine east on Edson is loading out a lot of coal.

[Airboy]

There is a group here pushing alternate uses for old oil wells. Geothermal, lithium extraction to name a few.

[Coldrsx]

Edmonton has the highest per capita emissions of any municipality in Canada, according to the University of Alberta.

The city emitted the equivalent of 18 tonnes of carbon dioxide per person in 2020. In comparison, Calgary emitted 14 tonnes, and Vancouver emitted six tonnes in 2019.

https://edmonton.taproot.news/conten...eid=b81cde227f

[Hackslack]

A function of urban sprawl? Does that include the vancouver metro area? Van has an area of 115 km2, compared to Edmonton's 645 km2 and Calgary's 825 km2

[Coldrsx]

Sprawl, distance to work, climate (cold), industry composition (energy intensive).