How widespread are the homeless/mental health/addiction issues in your city/province?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MissingMiddler

In Toronto we have security at all these places, but I wonder if they're as useless where you are as they are here. Here they're literally just window dressing.

I was once at an LCBO in midtown, and a couple of regular theives came in for what I gathered was the *fifth* time that hour, with garbage bags, just emptying shelves of liquor into the bags and walking out. Security stands back and lets them in and out, cashiers give sarcastic hellos and goodbyes, but security is there strictly as a visual prevention strategy. They do fuck all.

Perhaps it's happened very sporadically, but I've never heard of this happening in Ottawa (much less Gatineau). And Ottawa has a pretty sketchy LCBO store location at the corner of Rideau and King Edward that is surrounded by vagrants most of the time. (Though I suspect homeless people aren't the ones who typically commit these "quick grab" thefts.)

One of my kids actually works for a pool of SAQ liquor stores in central Montreal. (SAQ has rotating teams of employees that work in multiple locations in a given area.) They have some shady customers from time to time but the "quick grab" thefts aren't really a thing in Montreal, based on what I've heard. Not yet anyway.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Perhaps it's happened very sporadically, but I've never heard of this happening in Ottawa (much less Gatineau). And Ottawa has a pretty sketchy LCBO store location at the corner of Rideau and King Edward that is surrounded by vagrants most of the time. (Though I suspect homeless people aren't the ones who typically commit these "quick grab" thefts.)

One of my kids actually works for a pool of SAQ liquor stores in central Montreal. (SAQ has rotating teams of employees that work in multiple locations in a given area.) They have some shady customers from time to time but the "quick grab" thefts aren't really a thing in Montreal, based on what I've heard. Not yet anyway.

There was an absolute epidemic of them in Manitoba, and it came to a head during the pandemic. The thefts got more and more brazen as the thieves were emboldened by the fact that no one would do anything about them... they came in with duffel bags and backpacks, filling them up with bottles. It was often teenagers doing the stealing.

But once the thieves started getting violent with staff and customers, that's when MBLL finally stepped in and introduced the secure entries to the stores. That has dramatically reduced the number of these crimes.

At the time, I think there was a sense that the thefts were symbolic of a general increase in lawlessness and/or social decline. It coincided with other negative news stories along those lines, like increased fare evasion/violence on buses, homeless encampments, a spike in murders, etc.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by esquire

I would agree with this. Hence the suddenly ubiquitous "Abuse will not be tolerated" signs.

Going back and reading the earlier posts in this thread, I was struck by MonctonRad's comments about how social order for the working class/working poor has deteriorated. I wonder how much the availability of potent street drugs has to do with that... 75 years ago someone might slam back a dozen beers and get a little rowdy, but I get the impression that's generally a far cry from what someone on a meth binge is capable of doing.

I tend to think that drugs are more of a symptom than the cause. Back when I worked blue collar jobs during the summer I knew a bunch of guys that did a LOT of hard drugs but were also making more than enough money to support the habit. Alcoholics were just as bad as the guys who had to do a line at 7:30am to start the day (lots of overlap there though). If I somehow became homeless I'd likely seek out more substances too.

Generally speaking I do believe that most addicts will keep to themselves if they are able to support their habit. It may not be a popular opinion but I'd rather see that than a bunch of rehab for people who don't want to be rehabilitated. Of course when they do it should be available.

[niwell]

Private security is becoming ubiquitous in some places, though it doesn't sound as bad as Winnipeg yet. I have seen a few private security "neighbourhood patrols" which to me is quite disconcerting.

This was the norm when I lived in South Africa. People do get used to it, and will tend to associate "safe places" with private security. This is not a good thing. The guys patrolling our suburb were very nice and I waved to them and sometimes chatted walking back from the grocery store but it shouldn't be the norm. If I looked a little different they wouldn't have waved to me.

[thewave46]

I'm curious if the LCBO moves away from the self-service model for many of its downtown locations. A clerk giving someone a bottle from the back that was chosen from an iPad-style menu seems more resistant to theft.

Anyway, the larger point of the bottom falling out remains. As much as alcoholism was the previous problem (let's not pretend life was Mayberry RFD before) and still is to an extent, the wave of hard drugs is just more permanently damaging.

That, combined with a contingent of mental health folks now ending up on the streets because SROs are dying is just making things very visible.

Again, are we prepared for the consequences of mass re-institutionalization/forced rehab, if we could even possibly do that?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I'm curious if the LCBO moves away from the self-service model for many of its downtown locations. A clerk giving someone a bottle from the back that was chosen from an iPad-style menu seems more resistant to theft.

Yeah, I can't see "just let them take the stuff" being a sustainable approach in the medium term, if it escalates further.

Such behaviour seems to be reaching epidemic proportions in California for example, and a lot of people there say "so what? the stores all have insurance". But at some point the losses get passed off to all of us, either through higher prices or higher insurance premiums, or both.

Theft isn't "free".

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, I can't see "just let them take the stuff" being a sustainable approach in the medium term, if it escalates further.

Such behaviour seems to be reaching epidemic proportions in California for example, and a lot of people there say "so what? the stores all have insurance". But at some point the losses get passed off to all of us, either through higher prices or higher insurance premiums, or both.

Theft isn't "free".

I strongly suspect that theft has killed downtown retail in Winnipeg. So that's a major impact on the urban environment right there.

For many years the stores muddled along even as the customer pool dwindled. But thefts seemed to get worse and worse, I remember a decade ago hearing about a downtown dollar store owner who said she lost $100,000 a year to shoplifting. I doubt it has gotten any better since. So no surprise that when the pandemic flared up, many of the stores that remained simply packed it in.

It's the same thing with supermarkets. A lot of inner city supermarkets are hanging in there, but if theft rates continue to be high, some will close. And then people will complain about food deserts.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I strongly suspect that theft has killed downtown retail in Winnipeg. So that's a major impact on the urban environment right there.

For many years the stores muddled along even as the customer pool dwindled. But thefts seemed to get worse and worse, I remember a decade ago hearing about a downtown dollar store owner who said she lost $100,000 a year to shoplifting. I doubt it has gotten any better since. So no surprise that when the pandemic flared up, many of the stores that remained simply packed it in.

It's the same thing with supermarkets. A lot of inner city supermarkets are hanging in there, but if theft rates continue to be high, some will close. And then people will complain about food deserts.

Especially in certain cities, or at least in certain parts of cities, these days police may not show up or do much to investigate petty thefts, so this only compounds the problem.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

Private security is becoming ubiquitous in some places, though it doesn't sound as bad as Winnipeg yet. I have seen a few private security "neighbourhood patrols" which to me is quite disconcerting.

This was the norm when I lived in South Africa. People do get used to it, and will tend to associate "safe places" with private security. This is not a good thing. The guys patrolling our suburb were very nice and I waved to them and sometimes chatted walking back from the grocery store but it shouldn't be the norm. If I looked a little different they wouldn't have waved to me.

And if people think think there are serious issues with profiling by police who must answer to elected officials, ethics boards and watchdogs with actual teeth, they ain't seen nothin' yet.

This is not a positive evolution.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Especially in certain cities, or at least in certain parts of cities, these days police may not show up or do much to investigate petty thefts, so this only compounds the problem.

No question that there is a growing sense of impunity. Particularly as it relates to thefts from stores or petty misbehaviour (transit fare evasion, for example).

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella

I saw a homeless/transient openly smoking crack yesterday evening in the Kendal entrance of Spadina station.

I know I may be suffering from recency bias, but I never recall seeing anything like this being done openly in the area 17-20 years ago when I was a kid. It used to be homeless and poor people with the baseball cap out out, selling pencils, CDs etc.

Here it's syringes. I've seen people shooting up all over downtown. And they just leave syringes everywhere. Fortunately, there are some people from the shelter (I think) who walk around and pick them up and dispose of the properly. But sometimes there will be a bunch of them on the sidewalk. But I've been told that there are big improvements since the newer safe injection site opened.

[Coldrsx]

For what it's worth.

---
Global Energy Financing won't be opening an Edmonton office because of street dangers

Arthur C Green

https://www.westernstandard.news/alb..._medium=social

[OldDartmouthMark]

In another story linked from the story posted above...

A young Edmonton woman says she's sore, but alive to tell her story after she was attacked on the LRT.

On Sunday night, Chanting Blackwater was travelling on the LRT and got attacked in Coliseum station.

A woman who she believes is a drug user cornered her in a station elevator and tried to rob her.

"She assaulted me inside the elevator and on the platform. There was no security, no one around to help," Blackwater said.

"I tried my best to defend myself, as she was trying to push me onto the tracks and hitting me."

Eventually, the attacker stopped and Blackwater was able to gain her composure and called the Edmonton Police Service (EPS).

"She (attacker) then came back and continued to assault me while I was on the phone with EPS," Blackwater said.

"The dispatcher who I was talking to told me that they reviewed the footage and said I did a good job trying to keep her off me."

A terrifying experience for the young woman from Edmonton who is just trying to work her night shifts so she can pay rent. Blackwater is feeling the effects of the attack but remains positive.

She has been an Edmonton transit user for many years and knows the risks associated with using the system.

"I want people to be very careful when taking the LRT at night or just in general," Blackwater said.

"Especially, Coliseum Station. If you are by yourself, please stay around people or even if there is security around stay by them."

"The LRT is full of homeless people and drug addicts," Blackwater said.

"I've seen it all there."

Edmonton woman warning residents of dangers of LRT after fighting off attacker

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

For what it's worth.

---
Global Energy Financing won't be opening an Edmonton office because of street dangers

Arthur C Green

https://www.westernstandard.news/alb..._medium=social

I understand that maybe the part of downtown Edmonton they saw didn't give off the right impression. But surely there are tons of other parts of Edmonton that are completely safe and don't feel threatening or dodgy.

Also, a financing outfit isn't a touristy thing like Planet Hollywood. It doesn't need a location where Wanda from Weyburn feels comfortable walking down the sidewalk with a baby stroller.

[lio45]

It’s pathetic that we would let “too unsafe” add itself to the list of reasons to avoid mass transit and buy a cheap old ICE personal vehicle instead, in 2022.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

It’s pathetic that we would let “too unsafe” add itself to the list of reasons to avoid mass transit and buy a cheap old ICE personal vehicle instead, in 2022.

In... Canada.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by esquire

I strongly suspect that theft has killed downtown retail in Winnipeg. So that's a major impact on the urban environment right there.

For many years the stores muddled along even as the customer pool dwindled. But thefts seemed to get worse and worse, I remember a decade ago hearing about a downtown dollar store owner who said she lost $100,000 a year to shoplifting. I doubt it has gotten any better since. So no surprise that when the pandemic flared up, many of the stores that remained simply packed it in.

It's the same thing with supermarkets. A lot of inner city supermarkets are hanging in there, but if theft rates continue to be high, some will close. And then people will complain about food deserts.

Several 7/11's in the downtown area have closed down. We will probably see more close down soon. I feel bad for anyone having to work at a 7/11 anywhere down town or in the north end.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by lio45

It’s pathetic that we would let “too unsafe” add itself to the list of reasons to avoid mass transit and buy a cheap old ICE personal vehicle instead, in 2022.

There's been a lot of high profile violence on transit here, but I don't think it has led to a lot of people going out and buying cars. Car ownership is just really expensive in Canada and there are a lot of captive transit riders. In the Toronto area, average insurance rates are pushing $2,000/year. If it's between that, and paying for rapidly increasing rent, most people choose the rent.

In the US, there's that 10-20% of the population who are poor but not at the bottom who would own a car despite living paycheck to paycheck. Things like living in your car, or driving around in an uninsured car with a garbage bag for a window are just not a thing here. Public transit isn't great, but it's good enough and the cost of car ownership is just way too high.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

There's been a lot of high profile violence on transit here, but I don't think it has led to a lot of people going out and buying cars. Car ownership is just really expensive in Canada and there are a lot of captive transit riders. In the Toronto area, average insurance rates are pushing $2,000/year. If it's between that, and paying for rapidly increasing rent, most people choose the rent.

In the US, there's that 10-20% of the population who are poor but not at the bottom who would own a car despite living paycheck to paycheck. Things like living in your car, or driving around in an uninsured car with a garbage bag for a window are just not a thing here. Public transit isn't great, but it's good enough and the cost of car ownership is just way too high.

Good points though I think at some point you will start losing what are referred to as "choice" transit users. People that have other means of personal transportation (generally a private vehicle) but who choose to ride transit - especially rail-based - for other reasons. And because the downsides aren't really there or that bad.

There are all sorts of stories of people spotting notable Torontonians (mayor, premiers, ministers, etc.) on the Toronto subway from time to time.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/tiff-traf...ning-1.1994331

The loss of "choice" transit users doesn't just affect farebox numbers, it also has an impact of the overall atmosphere of the transit system. Middle and upper middle class people feel better about using transit when there are decent numbers of people like them in a rail or subway. For better or worse, c'est la vie.

[niwell]

We are in a weird situation where I think things definitely are getting worse which is very concerning, but the perception of things maybe even exponentially so. I don't take the TTC daily as I cycle year-round, but still fairly frequently and have never really had any negative experiences that are worse than those encountered in the past. I still will choose the TTC over my car when travelling in the central city and even take my dog on the subway/streetcar on occasion. Not denying that horrible things have happened - and again increasingly often - but reading reddit/news headlines makes it seem like you're taking your life in your hands every time you enter the subway.

There's the danger of a positive feedback loop that will end up making things even worse as people will react to the perception and choose to avoid transit / the inner-city completely (granted I don't think this will happen in Toronto, but Edmonton?).

Again, reminds me a bit too much of South Africa where I'd hear things like "don't EVER go to the CBD as you'll get robbed if not killed in a heartbeat". While there's certainly a bit of truth to that, often having literally been there multiple times that week I'd ask when they'd been last / what their experiences were. Usually the answer was along the lines of "oh, it's been almost a decade - I avoid it like the plague!". Things get REALLY bad when we start writing them off completely.