Planning underway for new commuter ferry between Bedford and Halifax

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I was talking about a stadium, not an arena, but it's true that London is a city of comparable size without a stadium, other than the small one at Western. London's a bit of an odd place, though; it suffers a bit from its proximity to Toronto.

It’s interesting as well that this arena was built in the 1970s… so we used to be able to do bigger things, and the Metro Centre was a big thing for Halifax - 50 years ago - but we couldn’t do much more than green light a pop up stadium in recent years.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

So not a “sky is falling” moment but concerning that it was brought forth as a possibility. 10-4 is comforting in that the overwhelming majority can understand that this needs to be done. So hopefully we will see ferries running out of Mill Cove within the next decade or so.

And hopefully there will be other projects that happen concurrently. I suspect that they are able to juggle more than one project at a time, but we’ll see.

The conversation at council was encouraging, I found. Mancini, St. Amand, Kent and others spoke forcefully about the need to build transit and not forsake the funding from other levels of government, and spoke of the opportunity this presents for future ridership growth, the Bedford waterfront and future growth of the system as a whole. Even the “well, we have to tighten our belts” voices were not arguing against the project so much as reviewing the costs (though Cuttell and ESPECIALLY Purdy seemed very keen to kill it to scar the $$).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think it's been said already but the Bedford Highway isn't BRT ready. Widening it would likely be difficult and could also take years and cost into the hundreds of millions, with no guarantee of comparable fed spending. Commuter rail would be nice but negotiations with CN have failed many times. Furthermore the train is complementary to the ferry, not an either/or; they don't serve the same routes. You can imagine somebody doing park-and-ride to the train in Wellington then ferry downtown, or somebody else taking the train from Mill Cove to Rockingham or Mumford or by Dal.

One thing that annoys me is the idea that these are "mega projects" or make-or-break municipal investments and the city needs to make sure it's picked the perfect one before it moves forward. These aren't projects of that scale and the transport network likely will need a lot of different modes.

Many good points and your last paragraph encapsulates how I feel about it. Ferry service working in conjunction with bus/BRT service, and yes *gasp* even LRT should be expectations as the city grows, and should be handled proactively because it takes decades to put in place, yet it’s still debated like “are we sure this is really what we want to do?”, even after the project has been planned and is passing by its original projected completion date. Heck they have been debating a “fast ferry” from Bedford at least since Peter Kelly was mayor, like the 1990s. Perhaps if they had moved forward with it back then, Mill Cove might have been built up to be something really nice, whereas it is still somewhat mediocre and feels more quaint and small townish.

It does become a little frustrating that we are continually talking about things that should have happened but didn’t, and now we’ve had an historic bump in population and everybody’s complaining about traffic, and still there are councillors who are asking whether we should be adding to our transit capacity or if we should be looking at only the cheapest, easiest solutions (which aren’t really solutions, but just stopgaps) that would be many years from completion if even theyhad been started yet. Makes you wonder if any of them have ever managed anything big before they stepped into politics. It seems like even simple bicycle lanes are too much to handle, given the low initial estimates that ballooned into multiples of the original budget.

It doesn’t give one much confidence that things are going to improve for a long time, if ever.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

The conversation at council was encouraging, I found. Mancini, St. Amand, Kent and others spoke forcefully about the need to build transit and not forsake the funding from other levels of government, and spoke of the opportunity this presents for future ridership growth, the Bedford waterfront and future growth of the system as a whole. Even the “well, we have to tighten our belts” voices were not arguing against the project so much as reviewing the costs (though Cuttell and ESPECIALLY Purdy seemed very keen to kill it to scar the $$).

That’s good to hear. Thanks!

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think it's been said already but the Bedford Highway isn't BRT ready. Widening it would likely be difficult and could also take years and cost into the hundreds of millions, with no guarantee of comparable fed spending. Commuter rail would be nice but negotiations with CN have failed many times. Furthermore the train is complementary to the ferry, not an either/or; they don't serve the same routes. You can imagine somebody doing park-and-ride to the train in Wellington then ferry downtown, or somebody else taking the train from Mill Cove to Rockingham or Mumford or by Dal.

One thing that annoys me is the idea that these are "mega projects" or make-or-break municipal investments and the city needs to make sure it's picked the perfect one before it moves forward. These aren't projects of that scale and the transport network likely will need a lot of different modes.

I know everything costs money, and a lot of it at times. However, what would be the cost overall if HRM+Province and CN agreed to infill that strip of the harbour shoreline adjacent to the existing rail ROW? Then realign the cargo train tracks 20m-25m over and repurpose the existing ROW for BRT/LRT with the stations on the east side of Bedford Highway instead of trying to rework the entire existing roadway.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

I know everything costs money, and a lot of it at times. However, what would be the cost overall if HRM+Province and CN agreed to infill that strip of the harbour shoreline adjacent to the existing rail ROW? Then realign the cargo train tracks 20m-25m over and repurpose the existing ROW for BRT/LRT with the stations on the east side of Bedford Highway instead of trying to rework the entire existing roadway.

I’ve been wondering about that for a very long time. Instead of dumping pyritic slate to expand Ceres use it to widen the rail bed. You would need a lot more rock than just that of course but it is something we have lots of.

The other thing that occurs to me just as a blue sky idea is an overhead rail or monorail line from somewhere around the 101/102 interchange area to DT Halifax. Why are they used in amusement parks but not usually for practical purposes?

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

I know everything costs money, and a lot of it at times. However, what would be the cost overall if HRM+Province and CN agreed to infill that strip of the harbour shoreline adjacent to the existing rail ROW? Then realign the cargo train tracks 20m-25m over and repurpose the existing ROW for BRT/LRT with the stations on the east side of Bedford Highway instead of trying to rework the entire existing roadway.

I like the enthusiasm but this isn't feasible due to the water lots. The western shore of Bedford is lined with them. I counted 25 separate lots between Prince's Lodge and Crosby "Island". Only four of them are publicly owned (HRM or NS) and at least a couple are owned by developers (United Gulf). The CN property is very narrow in spots and has no wiggle room to relocate the tracks so the government would have to purchase property. This would open a can of worms. Most of these properties have been cut off for over a century from road access. I imagine quite a few of the owners would demand an access road and permission to infill and develop their lots (federal issue I know). The lots extend up to 100 metres into the basin so that is a lot of potential environmental destruction. Access over the rail line property is what is protecting Bedford Basin from becoming another infilling target like Northwest Arm and Dartmouth Cove.

There is also the amount of infill that would be needed. Bedford Basin gets up to 70 metres deep in the centre and as with anything in Halifax it is not flat or even. An infill of 20 metres horizontally would require more than 20 metres vertically in many spots. That hill that Larry Uteck Blvd runs up extends deep into the basin. That hill is almost 150 metres tall and up to a third of it is underwater. The Basin has been around for a long time. The glaciers made it a deep glacial lake which lasted until sea levels rose 5'000 years ago and flooded it. The whole Bedford Basin, Narrows, Halifax Harbour were an extension of a much bigger Sackville River. The old riverbed can be traced all the way out to Herring Cove.

I am happy to hear the motion at Regional Council failed and the ferry is still planned to occur. I read some council blogs about it and listened to a bit of the debate.

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I’ve been wondering about that for a very long time. Instead of dumping pyritic slate to expand Ceres use it to widen the rail bed. You would need a lot more rock than just that of course but it is something we have lots of.

The other thing that occurs to me just as a blue sky idea is an overhead rail or monorail line from somewhere around the 101/102 interchange area to DT Halifax. Why are they used in amusement parks but not usually for practical purposes?

Overhead rails are pretty ugly but some still exist in NYC and (I think) Chicago. The median on Connaught could be a good route from the Windsor Street Exchange all the way to Quinpool, either at-grade or a raised platform like you see with the Vancouver Skytrain. That median is the same width as 2 car lanes plus it appears that people parallel park on both the north-bound and south-bound lanes of Connaught. If they removed the street parking (which shouldn't be a thing anyway) they would theoretically have enough physical space available for an LRT line without having to buy expensive property for widening. Same deal with Quinpool - remove the street parking and you might be able to just squeeze in a line through the middle of the street without sacrificing existing car lanes.

The drawback is that Connaught median is used for an overhead power corridor. I wonder if it's possible to accommodate a power ROW above the rail, or could they bury the line underneath and build the rail on top of it.

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

I like the enthusiasm but this isn't feasible due to the water lots. The western shore of Bedford is lined with them. I counted 25 separate lots between Prince's Lodge and Crosby "Island". Only four of them are publicly owned (HRM or NS) and at least a couple are owned by developers (United Gulf). The CN property is very narrow in spots and has no wiggle room to relocate the tracks so the government would have to purchase property. This would open a can of worms. Most of these properties have been cut off for over a century from road access. I imagine quite a few of the owners would demand an access road and permission to infill and develop their lots (federal issue I know). The lots extend up to 100 metres into the basin so that is a lot of potential environmental destruction. Access over the rail line property is what is protecting Bedford Basin from becoming another infilling target like Northwest Arm and Dartmouth Cove.

There is also the amount of infill that would be needed. Bedford Basin gets up to 70 metres deep in the centre and as with anything in Halifax it is not flat or even. An infill of 20 metres horizontally would require more than 20 metres vertically in many spots. That hill that Larry Uteck Blvd runs up extends deep into the basin. That hill is almost 150 metres tall and up to a third of it is underwater. The Basin has been around for a long time. The glaciers made it a deep glacial lake which lasted until sea levels rose 5'000 years ago and flooded it. The whole Bedford Basin, Narrows, Halifax Harbour were an extension of a much bigger Sackville River. The old riverbed can be traced all the way out to Herring Cove.

I am happy to hear the motion at Regional Council failed and the ferry is still planned to occur. I read some council blogs about it and listened to a bit of the debate.

Thanks for the info. I guess I didn't look into the shoreline property rights - I figured CN just owned the ROW + shoreline along that whole strip.

Looking at this bathymetry map:
https://fishing-app.gpsnauticalcharts.co...SIN%29+boating+app#15.1/44.7035/-63.6629
It seems like most of that shoreline is around 5ft-35ft but drops like a cliff to 60ft-65ft around Larry Uteck. That might be the biggest problem area for infill. My experience with slope staking and construction only goes to road building and you usually don't deal with slopes steeper than 3:1 or 4:1 but something like this must be massive comparatively.

A man can still dream though, right?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Even the “well, we have to tighten our belts” voices were not arguing against the project so much as reviewing the costs (though Cuttell and ESPECIALLY Purdy seemed very keen to kill it to scar the $$).

It's the kind of thing that sounds convincing because it's relatable to household budgeting and the virtues of being frugal, but governments need to account for cost-sharing, opportunity costs, and the effect on the tax base.

One question is how council can ensure the ferry is successful by promoting good development in Bedford and creating good transit connections. Bedford development has been very underwhelming, even though it's a desirable part of a fast-growing metro area. If you shift housing development to the area served by the ferry and make it pedestrian-friendly (take the ferry to your job downtown, walk home, stop in the grocery store on the way), you can reduce a lot of demand on the roads. But as it is today Bedford is pretty much completely road dependent. On the Halifax side there's also room for improvement with better urban "backbone" transit, transit hubs, and mixed-use development.

Bedford could also be a tourism and event destination with the ferry being a part of that, and that would benefit locals living nearby in areas like Sackville and Hammonds Plains. The ferry ride itself will probably be pretty nice.

I have a feeling the existing ridership estimates are pessimistic since population growth has been so much higher than expected. This means more potential riders and more congestion pushing people to alternatives to driving.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

Bedford could also be a tourism and event destination with the ferry being a part of that, and that would benefit locals living nearby in areas like Sackville and Hammonds Plains. The ferry ride itself will probably be pretty nice.

I have a feeling the existing ridership estimates are pessimistic since population growth has been so much higher than expected. This means more potential riders and more congestion pushing people to alternatives to driving.

I have a feeling the ridership estimates could easily be exceeded as well, though this is somewhat vibes on my part. I think there will be a lot of interest in it off the bat, and if it proves genuinely fast and convenient, and isn't plagued by frequent delays, staff shortages, etc., it will be very succesful.

Councillor St. Amand talked a bit in council the other day about making the Bedford waterfront a true third downtown in the region, alongside Halifax and Dartmouth. Obviously the ferry is not a silver bullet in making this a reality, but it certainly has the potential to be an asset.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Councillor St. Amand talked a bit in council the other day about making the Bedford waterfront a true third downtown in the region, alongside Halifax and Dartmouth. Obviously the ferry is not a silver bullet in making this a reality, but it certainly has the potential to be an asset.

My impression is that another problem is Bedford has inherited small town suburban style zoning, maybe going all the way back to the former town. Major height and density limits, large parking and setback requirements, and limits on mixed use. It produces the sort of development you see around the Moirs area, strip malls and midrise with parking lots and setbacks. This area doesn't have to turn into midtown Manhattan, but the current style of development and limits are likely too low for mixed use pedestrian orientation and TOD. If the zoning is such that only 1,000 people can live within a 15 minute walk of the ferry that will have a negative impact.

It is also a problem that connectivity across the rail tracks is so bad. I wonder if there's any way to add simple at-grade crossings for pedestrians and bikes or if that has tons of red tape and the city's stuck with whatever was done in 1940.

[someone123]

It is backwards with outer suburban Bedford getting proposals like this: https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/governmen...s-to-allow-for-bedford-commons-proposal/

And then the inner area which can have more meaningful transit connections is kept low density.

[OldDartmouthMark]

The strange thing about this part of Bedford is that you have sites like this or this that were cleared and excavated over 10 years ago, and are still undeveloped. These are just two obvious ones along the main route, but it makes me wonder if the perceived market for this area is such that the developers don't feel it's worth their investment to fill out these lots, much less build high-density developments.

[Offshore1]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

The strange thing about this part of Bedford is that you have sites like this or this that were cleared and excavated over 10 years ago, and are still undeveloped. These are just two obvious ones along the main route, but it makes me wonder if the perceived market for this area is such that the developers don't feel it's worth their investment to fill out these lots, much less build high-density developments.

I visit Halifax somewhat regularly to see family and have noticed these sites. With all the development in HRM in general these spots seem ripe for the picking. Strange indeed.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

The strange thing about this part of Bedford is that you have sites like this or this that were cleared and excavated over 10 years ago, and are still undeveloped. These are just two obvious ones along the main route, but it makes me wonder if the perceived market for this area is such that the developers don't feel it's worth their investment to fill out these lots, much less build high-density developments.

The first one is 910 Bedford.

The planning framework in this area is pretty unchanged since the time Bedford was its own city, and really continues to enshrine the "small town" approach. Doing anything different requires an amendment to the Plan, which has historically been very unpopular. Hopefully the Suburban Plan will finally unlock some potential in this area.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Yes, I recall the thread and even posting in it, years ago.

After refreshing my memory by reviewing some of the posts, it almost seems to me that plans were put forward but were never acted upon, for some reason. Are we to assume that the developers are holding their cards close to their chests, expecting the zoning to change, or increase in demand to also increase value (perhaps due to a promised ferry located within walking distance of the sites)?

If that’s the case, however, then why excavate the sites, creating an eyesore essentially, and leave it in that state for over a decade? And why are they allowed to do this? If a resident left their properties in shambles, I’m sure there would be bylaw enforcement people knocking at their door after a while. Does this get an exemption because it’s a “construction site”?

I’m also a little disappointed that the zoning hasn’t been changed like it has virtually everywhere else in the city. Makes no sense to this average citizen who does not have any inside knowledge of the industry.

These are just things I think of when I should be doing something more productive… thanks for your patience.

[Dmajackson]

910 Bedford Highway is an interesting case of a long approved project never being built. It is owned by United Gulf which happens to also own the lot that is slowing down the ferry terminal construction from starting. The zoning might be a factor, but I believe it is a case of this site being a low priority for a developer that has it's hands full. Currently United Gulf has four developments under construction in Halifax (Skye, Roya, Port West, Voyageur Lakes). They also own the Paper Mill Lake lands (Nine Mile Drive Extension) which is another 400 additional units. That one is a Provincial SPA so it is likely their next construction site.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Guess I shouldn’t be too surprised when Skye is included in the list. I wonder if other cities have regulations against leaving land in a perpetual state of excavated lot with construction fencing for decades in prominent locations.

Is this unusual, or a Halifax “characteristic”?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Is this unusual, or a Halifax “characteristic”?

I've wondered about this. My impression is it varies a lot by city, but Halifax has plenty of company, and it doesn't have to be so. In some ways I think the city is a victim of its own success, but could manage things better.

Around here (or in say downtown Toronto) there are often delays not because of a lack of demand but because profits can be made just from flipping or holding onto land and there's the possibility up-zoning. These days Halifax can be like this too. There are plenty of stories of lots sitting empty and being flipped for years, tenants being evicted, and no progress being made even during a housing shortage. Meanwhile a land owner can get a serious payout without doing any productive work.

I also believe HRM specifically does a poor job of managing the redevelopment of municipally-owned sites. They do a poor job of enforcing standards in the prime parts of town in general (see for example the Obladee situation, years of scaffolding, and questionable quality of the restoration work done so far). Some of the fixes might require provincial legislation, and I think NS does a generally poor job of these things as well.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

I saw this ferry in Greece the other day and thought it looked 'right-sized' for Halifax Transit. I did a bit of googling of the name on the bow and found that it holds 150 passengers which I think is the Halifax Transit target. This one is not electric. It cost 7 million euros in 2022.

PXL_20260308_082822871 by A.J. Forsythe, on Flickr