Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oh it's definitely back and not just with old people.

There was a debate in the House of Commons last week with Erin O'Toole and Mélanie Joly trying to position themselves on the "right" side of the debate. Erin also appeared on Tout le monde en parle on Sunday.

There have been multiple news reports about lack of service and signage in French in shops and businesses, people not being able to work in French.

Demonstrations and online petitions to reinforce French.

A pledge from the CAQ to reform and strengthen Bill 101.

Calls to extend Bill 101 restrictions to the CEGEP junior college system.

Controversy over Quebec following through on funding a major expansion of an anglophone CEGEP in Montreal (originally green-lighted by the Liberals) while French CEGEPs are allegedly starving for funding.

And predictably there has even been pushback from part of the "woke" side saying that wanting French to be the main common language is actually anti-diversity, colonialist and even white supremacist...

I am probably forgetting some things but I think that is sufficient evidence that the language issue is back.

Mostly the same old, same old of trying to hammer the square peg of Montreal into the round peg of Quebec nationalist narrative, no?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Well, those looking for downward social mobility are a bit niche, no?

That's actually borderline racist, isn't it?

Because it's 2020!

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Which of the Quebec-Canada issues would you say have been settled? (Genuinely interested in hearing your views.)

The language bit, as mentioned before. Bill 101 rarely causes a raised eyebrow today. People used to get really angry about it. It does flare up (Bonjour/Hi anyone?), but is far more accepted as a fait accompli.

How activist or restrictive the feds are in handing out money or starting new programs. They generally are content to sign a cheque now. New federal programs usually have an opt out clause of some sort.

What is the role of state aid directly in the economy: the province is much more activist in the protection of Quebec business versus the feds. The feds seem to have found a happy medium is letting the government of Quebec do what it pleases on that file while not rocking the boat excessively for existing programs (see: dairy subsidies).

The role of immigration and who is encouraged to settle in the province has been partially delegated to the province.

That Quebec is a distinct society, such that the Harper Government's resolution changes anything practical on that particular matter.

I'd say the biggest irritants are pretty much still equalization and Bill 21. With respect to equalization, Legault seems committed to improving Quebec's economy and weaning itself from it if his campaign promises hold true.

Maybe I'm misreading things, but that's my take. I'm also looking from one side here.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

and you know this for a fact?

Using your black and white dichotomy couldn't the same thing be said about Québécois? that they could be Canadien (ian for Anglos), but they don't want to?

Which is equally absurd.

I'm sure Liojack has a clever riposte waiting for me. Dig in, and never give ground. Argue until the cows come home. In other words, wear people down with silly logical algebra (if X is ___ then Y is ____, and group Z is____), red herrings, false dichotomies and the self-serving, alternative Merriam-Webster definitions.

Somehow I cannot speak for my home province. Which pisses me off to no end. Anyone that knows me, on SSP or anywhere else, knows that I am fiercely proud of my Quebec roots. I am not going to be put in my 'place'.

No one has EVER attempted to prevent you from having your say on here. On Quebec or anything else.

(I can't say the same for me, unfortunately.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Using your black and white dichotomy couldn't the same thing be said about Québécois? that they could be Canadien (ian for Anglos), but they don't want to?
.

Those Québécois who don't fit into the "Average Canadian" image don't claim ownership of it, and don't complain about not being included in it.

In fact, some of them even revel in the idea that they're not "Canadian".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

The language bit, as mentioned before. Bill 101 rarely causes a raised eyebrow today. People used to get really angry about it. It does flare up (Bonjour/Hi anyone?), but is far more accepted as a fait accompli.

How activist or restrictive the feds are in handing out money or starting new programs. They generally are content to sign a cheque now. New federal programs usually have an opt out clause of some sort.

What is the role of state aid directly in the economy: the province is much more activist in the protection of Quebec business versus the feds. The feds seem to have found a happy medium is letting the government of Quebec do what it pleases on that file while not rocking the boat excessively for existing programs (see: dairy subsidies).

The role of immigration and who is encouraged to settle in the province has been partially delegated to the province.

That Quebec is a distinct society, such that the Harper Government's resolution changes anything practical on that particular matter.

I'd say the biggest irritants are pretty much still equalization and Bill 21. With respect to equalization, Legault seems committed to improving Quebec's economy and weaning itself from it if his campaign promises hold true.

Maybe I'm misreading things, but that's my take. I'm also looking from one side here.

These are interesting examples - thanks!

For the language issue, see my other post.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's actually borderline racist, isn't it?

Because it's 2020!

Racist to acknowledge the reality of an underclass in Canada? Doesn't seem that way to me.

[MolsonExport]

Are you seriously suggesting that all francophones in Quebec don't complain about the Canadian status quo or about their 'ownership' (whatever that means) of the term?
(but apparently Anglos do?) How noble of them. I wish I could be as secure in my identity as Acajack, who speaks for 'the people' of Quebec. I cannot, because I am anglo and I am thus biologically incapable of being Quebecois (because I am (a) not Francophone (even if I may speak the language), and/or (b) apparently I don't want to be, as told to me by someone who thinks they speak for their province more than I ever could).

Blood and soil nationalism, in other words

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Mostly the same old, same old of trying to hammer the square peg of Montreal into the round peg of Quebec nationalist narrative, no?

Hmmm. Francophone Montrealers, who seem to be the main drivers of this, are Montrealers too! At least check, they're still the largest demographic in the city!

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Hmmm. Francophone Montrealers, who seem to be the main drivers of this, are Montrealers too! At least check, they're still the largest demographic in the city!

As I said, same old, same old. Wouldn't those be the same demographic that were scarred for life by the notorious fat saleslady at Eatons?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oh it's definitely back and not just with old people.

There was a debate in the House of Commons last week with Erin O'Toole and Mélanie Joly trying to position themselves on the "right" side of the debate. Erin also appeared on Tout le monde en parle on Sunday.

There have been multiple news reports about lack of service and signage in French in shops and businesses, people not being able to work in French.

Demonstrations and online petitions to reinforce French.

A pledge from the CAQ to reform and strengthen Bill 101.

Calls to extend Bill 101 restrictions to the CEGEP junior college system.

Controversy over Quebec following through on funding a major expansion of an anglophone CEGEP in Montreal (originally green-lighted by the Liberals) while French CEGEPs are allegedly starving for funding.

And predictably there has even been pushback from part of the "woke" side saying that wanting French to be the main common language is actually anti-diversity, colonialist and even white supremacist...

I am probably forgetting some things but I think that is sufficient evidence that the language issue is back.

Maybe I'm in a bubble or the media here is gawking at COVID/Trump-Biden, so that's news to me. These largely seem self-contained Quebec issues, no? Aside from O'Toole, but he's playing for votes.

To one's uninformed point-of-view, it does have the feel of puffing up issues for political gain.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by lio45

That's quite unsurprising, though.

Similarly, the state identity of, say, Kansas is mostly going to be about currently living within the state borders of Kansas, while if you're with deep roots from the 50th State (Hawaiian) or from the 51st State (Puerto Rican) then there'll be an added element of cultural identity for you.

Guy from Kansas moves to Nebraska, he's pretty much become "a Nebraskan" within at most a few years of continuously living there.

(WASP) Guy from Kansas moves to Puerto Rico, he's still not Puerto Rican.

... we're on the same page there?

Disagree. To illustrate my point, imagine your typical ponderous NY Times think piece. This time it's about Puerto Rico. They talk to a man who has lived in San Juan for over 40 years after growing up in Kansas. Are they going to present him as an ex-pat from Kansas? Probably not... it would not make sense to do that if he hasn't been in Kansas since Jimmy Carter was the US president. I think at that point it would be fair to describe him as Puerto Rican... i.e. someone domiciled in Puerto Rico, who is invested there, probably has close family and social ties there. I mean, I'm sure some guys hanging out on the steps of a café might disagree and insist that he isn't a "real Puerto Rican" like them, but who cares... you will always find someone playing that game somewhere.

Now that said, I don't consider this rule absolute. It would be much harder to apply it to a country where nationality and ethnicity are joined at the hip like your favourite example, Poland, or Japan or what have you. Eddie from Kansas still wouldn't be considered Japanese even after living 60 years in Kobe and raising a family there. But places like Puerto Rico and Quebec are not at the same level in that regard... at least from what I can see.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Are you seriously suggesting that all francophones in Quebec don't complain about the Canadian status quo or about their 'ownership' (whatever that means) of the term?
but apparently Anglos do? How noble of them. I wish I could be as secure in my identity as Acajack, who speaks for 'the people' of Quebec.

What I am saying is that many (most? a strong majority of?) francophone Québécois have written off CanadiAn as an identity marker inasmuch as it's related to and defined by Canada as a whole, and something that refers to them.

That's why the media still says stuff like "les Québécois et les Canadiens", "le Québec et le Canada", "au Québec et au Canada" here. Even among people who are federalists there is a sense of apartness vis-à-vis the rest of Canada.

This is not an obscure notion BTW. And it's not new from 2020 (I mean, franchement) and was certainly not invented by me.

Anglo-Quebecers are much more likely to make a claim that "we're Quebecers/Québécois too!" and to feel that as a sore point.

[MolsonExport]

Survey suggests Quebecers' love for Canada surging during COVID crisis

I'm sure you will dismiss the article as it is from the Gazoo (albeit penned by someone with a francophone name)

Léger Poll: Eighty Per Cent of Quebecers are proud to be Canadian

I will accept, and even advocate, that the majority of Québécois identify first and foremost with their nation (Province). But most also identify with being Canadian, and feel a strong sense of pride with their Canadian citizenship, no matter how you want to sidestep the issue.

Before anyone throws the "you left Quebec" dart my way (I am sure it is coming), bear in mind that in Academia, there may be 2-3 postings for a tenure-track position in a given domain in Canada, per year. And I had to think about my wife's career aspirations, which of course would be hampered by the fact that she does not have nearly as good a command of French.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

As I said, same old, same old. Wouldn't those be the same demographic that were scarred for life by the notorious fat saleslady at Eatons?

Obviously some haven't yet gotten over it. Unless she's baaaaaaaack?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Survey suggests Quebecers' love for Canada surging during COVID crisis

I'm sure you will dismiss the article as it is from the Gazoo (albeit penned by someone with a francophone name)

Léger Poll: Eighty Per Cent of Quebecers are proud to be Canadian

I will accept, and even advocate, that the majority of Québécois identify first and foremost with their nation (Province). But most also identify with being Canadian, and feel a strong sense of pride with their Canadian citizenship, no matter how you want to sidestep the issue.

This is not inconsistent with what I said. They identify as Canadian and think they are part of Canada. It's just that their conception of what that means often differs from the one that prevails across most of Canada.

Similarly, Quebec is the most "Canadian" ("Canadien" would be more accurate) in terms of reported ethnic origin on the census. That's obviously because many Québécois consider themselves to be the original "Canadiens".

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Obviously some haven't yet gotten over it. Unless she's baaaaaaaack?

In fact, she moved into high tech and is lurking out there, kids enrolled in English language private schools, waiting for her moment.

[MolsonExport]

Do you think I don't know this? It does contradict what you stated in the previous post.

What I am saying is that many (most? a strong majority of?) francophone Québécois have written off CanadiAn as an identity marker inasmuch as it's related to and defined by Canada as a whole, and something that refers to them.

The statistics do not bear out your interpretation. Please stop acting like you have a monopoly on the answers about Quebec.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is not inconsistent with what I said. They identify as Canadian and think they are part of Canada. It's just that their conception of what that means often differs from the one that prevails across most of Canada.

Similarly, Quebec is the most "Canadian" ("Canadien" would be more accurate) in terms of reported ethnic origin on the census. That's obviously because many Québécois consider themselves to be the original "Canadiens".

In Quebec French, "Canadian" can be used as a term of disparagement, no? Sort of like "Uncle Tom" in U.S. English.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

In Quebec French, "Canadian" can be used as a term of disparagement, no? Sort of like "Uncle Tom" in U.S. English.

That type of stigma probably exists to some extent in all provinces except Ontario. Quebec is obviously the champion in that regard, but pretty well every other province has that going on to varying degrees (NL, NS, BC on the higher end of the scale, MB, NB on the lower end).

I mean, you see it all the time in this forum with the pro Newfoundland, or the pro Cascadia or the pro Alberta or the pro Maritimes posts. It's a weird love/hate dynamic where we all like to make it known that our province is a great nation in waiting held back from the world stage by the boring joyless nerds called Canada. It's practically a cliche at this point.