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  #161  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2019, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
because they COMPLETELY fucked up the planning (or lack thereof) in the commercial NE quadrant of schaumburg, ie. the woodfield area.

it's an absolute parking lot hellscape, the worst i've ever seen: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0474.../data=!3m1!1e3

the residential portions of schaumburg to the south and west are nondescript ho-hum post-war sprawlburbia, and not worthy of any extraordinary derision.
seems they could redevelop this into something more urban (and profitable)...
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  #162  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2019, 4:55 PM
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vibrancy = people, not buildings, but i get what you are saying. from scratch urban neighborhoods dont quite have the patina of a traditional neighborhood but many have lots of activity. the pearl district on most days is packed with people. its very vibrant. it just requires a broader community that values its central city.
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  #163  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2019, 7:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
Do you mean a garden or a yard?

Single family homes in urban neighborhoods (Brooklyn, most of London) often have a small garden, but if you have a “yard” big enough for even a child to run around in, you are probably in suburbia.

I would find a large yard pretty useless and a chore, compared to having a very good large urban park, where I can go for a several mile run or walk the dog, practically on my doorstep as I do now. Both would be fine, but if I had to pick between one and the other I would definitely choose the world class park. That’s something a lot of newer cities are also lacking.

And suburban sprawl actually creates more distance between the city and nature. Someone in central Paris is a lot closer, in time and distance, to the countryside than someone in central Chicago. The person in central Chicago has to get through a lot more sprawl, whereas urban Paris meets rural France very abruptly by American standards.
And I think that the reaction to the hyper dense city by Corbusier and his followers does make sense and shouldn't be completely dismissed, because there's definitely something to be said about having that kind of communal green space, however, his designs do reflect that society had a bit of a lack of experience with what makes those kinds of communal spaces work.

St James Town in Toronto is actually not too bad. It has a bit of a mix of uses within it, and a lot outside it, not to mention being very dense and surrounded by density. St James Town is also quite permeable to foot traffic. As a result, the green spaces do have a fair bit of pedestrian traffic so they don't feel too "dead and spooky" and the programming of the spaces with playgrounds, basket-ball courts and schoolyards helps with that too.

However, there are still issues. I think having walkways in the middle of the greenspace is not a good approach. It doesn't take away from the walkway, but it does seem to make the greenspace feel like a no-mans land. Maybe because it's ingrained in our minds that the space between the sidewalk and the building is private (ex frontyards), even though in these tower-in-the-park developments, it's not really private (or at least won't be used as such by residents). On the other hand, if you place the walkway right next to the building, or at least very close with maybe some shrubs in between, and place the greenspace between walkways it feels much more like a park or public space.

I think The Esplanade is a great example of how they got that right by framing the park by walkways. The walkways are well used to, since they're along a fairly well used east-west street for pedestrians walking to/from downtown, and there's also a bus road along that street. I think it would've also worked well if the car traffic was redirected do a back alley, but because the street is traffic calmed pretty well it doesn't really detract from the park. I do think it's important for the park to be easily accessible to the housing, very close by and without requiring the crossing of any dangerous high traffic/high speed streets.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.64961...7i16384!8i8192

And yeah, you do want the greenspace to feel like it's accessible to the public, unless it is able to function as a truly intimate space like some European apartment courtyards.

With St James Town, I think the outdoor pools are also a poor programming choice compared to playgrounds and basketball courts, since in Canada those will only be used 3 months of the year, and they need to be fenced in for safety reasons. The pools should've either been placed on roofs or indoors imo.

St James Town also has some public realm issues like having a lot of dumpsters in plain sight right next to the public spaces and a fair bit surface parking. It seems weird to have surface parking lots in addition to having already committed to building underground parking for the majority of resident parking.
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  #164  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2019, 9:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
seems they could redevelop this into something more urban (and profitable)...
As much as many people deride the cityscape (or lack thereof) of Schaumburg, the fact of the matter is, that particular area Steely is referencing is indeed profitable.

It's one of the examples of sprawlburbia that is not dying. The Woodfield shopping mall and environs is bursting at the seams, and even the office space there, after the loss of Zurich HQ, is recovering.

The last time I went to the Woodfield Shopping center with my family we couldn't find parking. At all. Think about that--no parking at a mall that has oceans of surface and garage parking. We literally almost gave up until I finally found a spot.
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  #165  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2019, 9:10 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
As much as many people deride the cityscape (or lack thereof) of Schaumburg, the fact of the matter is, that particular area Steely is referencing is indeed profitable.
i've never made any claims about schaumburg's profitability.

i just utterly detest the built-form of the place.



nickelback's music is also profitable.

it still sucks
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Apr 29, 2019 at 9:23 PM.
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  #166  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2019, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
i've never made any claims about schaumburg's profitability.
^ I was responding to DC Denizen who stated that Schaumburg needs to be redeveloped into something more urban and profitable.

The number one rule of real estate: if your property is making money, no matter how ugly it is, leave it alone.

So until Schaumburg starts turning into a dying money sinkhole, don't expect anything to change...
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  #167  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2019, 11:19 PM
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^ oh, gotcha.

Yeah, the Woodfield area in all of its craptacular glory is going to be with us for the foreseeable future.
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  #168  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2019, 11:24 PM
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Yes but it would likely be more profitable if redeveloped

See: king of Prussia mall outside Philadelphia.
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  #169  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 2:01 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Yes but it would likely be more profitable if redeveloped

See: king of Prussia mall outside Philadelphia.
Huh?

What’s so spectacular of the King of Prussia mall? It’s craptacular suburbia just like anything else
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  #170  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 3:05 AM
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Going big doesn't necessarily make financial sense. Often it doesn't.

I'm just speaking generally, not about any particular location.
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  #171  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 2:27 PM
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Huh?

What’s so spectacular of the King of Prussia mall? It’s craptacular suburbia just like anything else
feast your eyes on this:



much better than this (and likely more profitable):

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  #172  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 2:30 PM
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KOP mall has giant surface parking lots too. It now also has fake new urbanist stuff around the mall perimeter.

In terms of functionality, it's probably no different than Woodfield Mall (which, as I've previously mentioned, is bad, but not really different from your typical sprawl megamall).
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  #173  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 2:35 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post

What’s so spectacular of the King of Prussia mall? It’s craptacular suburbia just like anything else
yeah, the area around KoP looks just as disjointed and disconnected as the woodfield area, perhaps even moreso being sliced and diced by all of those expressways.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0918.../data=!3m1!1e3




America: building the absolute worst built environments on the planet for over 70 years!
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  #174  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 2:57 PM
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How come SEPTA doesn't branch the NHSL to King of Prussia? That might make it not suck.
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  #175  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 2:59 PM
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well this is a similar development...in finland

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Le...1!4d24.8104553

I see expressways too, but just a bit better retrofitting for walkers and no parking lots.

it can be done..
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  #176  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 3:25 PM
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In Vancouver and Toronto it seems like all the malls are being redeveloped into new high-rise shopping centres - being that so long as there's demand then anything is more profitable than parking lots. These are probably all exactly what we do NOT have in mind when it comes to intimately-scaled, character-filled modern urbanity though.



Oakridge Mall redevelopment




High Park Plaza redevelopment




Galleria Mall redevelopment




Yorkdale Mall parking lot development




Westside Mall redevelopment




Golden Square Mile Shopping Centre redevelopment




Eglinton Square redevelopment




Scarborough Town Centre parking lot developments




Etc. There are literally dozens of these in the works.
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  #177  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 3:52 PM
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Funny story. . . having grown up in Kenosha, Wisconsin - a "town" town on the far north end of Chicago's metro area complete with it's own street grid, Metra station etc. - I was woefully unprepared for the mind-boggling silliness of Schaumburg's new-suburbia streets/parking lots. . . one day (back in the 1980s when I was a teenager) I made a trip down to Woodfield and got lost in the nearby strip-malls - unable to actually navigate my way to Woodfield Mall itself, so I just said fuck it, turned around and went back home. . . that's how bad the urbanity is out in Schaumburg. . .

. . .
I grew up in Portland and a rural town 25 miles southwest of Portland that literally was originally a commuter town with a train and everything that hasn't existed now for many decades.

I always liked the city, and I liked the walkability of the small town - everything within a 15 minute walk, from the school to a small supermarket and a couple taverns and the post office.

But the Portland suburbs at the time were more like Schaumburg. Now it's created some better ones, but there still exist the confusing ones. If drive into the city even though the malls were closer just because I preferred knowing where I was going.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
off topic, but goolge mapping my way around metro milan, i came across the city's airport (which is surprisingly 25 miles outside of the city center!), and out in front of the ariport might just be the most audaciously inefficient surface parking lot in the world:

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.6274.../data=!3m1!1e3


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Aww, that's cute! The airplanes dock at little round terminals, and so do the cars ...

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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
...
And suburban sprawl actually creates more distance between the city and nature. Someone in central Paris is a lot closer, in time and distance, to the countryside than someone in central Chicago. The person in central Chicago has to get through a lot more sprawl, whereas urban Paris meets rural France very abruptly by American standards.
Even though I knew it intellectually, talking the RER to Versailles was still kind of surprising how close it was, or that past CDG was farmland almost immediately even though CDG and ORD are about the same distance from their city centers.

One consideration, though, is the lake. Chicago can only grow Westward, Paris can grow in all directions.
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  #178  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 4:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
feast your eyes on this:

^ Where's the "feast"?

They did something similar in Schaumburg, it's called Streets of Woodfield (minus the apartments, at least so far--but replace them with office towers and you're basically getting something quite similar)
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  #179  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 4:50 PM
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Tysons is maybe the gold standard of this type of thing in the US.



hard to find a picture of the entire plan though.
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  #180  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 4:52 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Tysons is maybe the gold standard of this type of thing in the US.
And yet Tysons is the same auto-oriented crap as everywhere else. They have a subway, tons of density, and it hasn't changed.

These areas are fundamentally unfixable outside of starting from scratch.
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