Regional and Intercity Bus\Rail Transportation

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

No. This is an individual traveling at peak, taking up space from an Ottawa resident and taxpayer and paying $2 for that ride compared to the Ottawa resident who is paying $3.50 for that trip.

Let me put it this way, why should somebody get a discount for OC Transpo based on the mode of travel on which they enter the network?

If you walk to an LRT station? No discount.

Bike to an LRT station? No discount.

Drive to an LRT station? No discount.

But if you arrive on a CRT bus at that station, you get a discount. Why?

Let me try and put it another way. I’ll use round numbers to make the math easier but you can substitute the real numbers:

Let’s say an OC Transpo pass costs $150 and 10% of the rural bus users transfer to OC Transpo. If the Rural agency gives OC Transpo $15 per monthly pass sold to allow anyone to transfer to OC Transpo, but only 1 in 10 do, OC Transpo isn’t out of pocket compared to having sold passes to only 10% of the riders.

That’s the way the current pricing was designed. The problem is:

1. The price was never adjusted with fare increases
2. With the Confederation line and no bus lanes, OC Transpo is concerned that the number of transfers will jump

What people here are saying is, work out a new deal that is fair to OC Transpo yet doesn’t force everyone currently taking a rural bus to start driving (which is also bad for Ottawa).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That might be something I could get behind.

I would bet money though that the rural bus services would absolutely detest this idea because it wouldn't be faster than the LRT during peak traffic, and the cost of their services would rise if they had to drive all the way to the absolute downtown core.

They currently do drive all the way downtown, so that won’t change. What will change is they won’t have bus lanes that they can use.

[kmcamp]

I think we're obsessing over a molehill versus a mountain here. The number of rural commuters by bus is a rounding error. It's way cheaper to take the hit of letting them switch to OC Transpo then to force them back to cars. Unlike say YRT riders switching to the subway at Finch in Toronto, the one busload of CRT riders showing up at Blair is not going to make a significant difference. I don't see any reason to change the status quo.

[lrt's friend]

There is a difference between discount and subsidy. As other posters have mentioned, there are reasonable grounds to negotiate a price that is in line with use of the transit system and that does not financially hurt OC.

There is also a difference between a rural user driving to an LRT station and an urban resident biking to an LRT station. In the former case, most riders will use only the trunk line. Limited rural service dictates that people are unlikely to be transferring all over the city. In the case of the biker, we still need to provide local transit service in the biker's neighbourhood, which has a significant cost. He has chosen to not use it.

It gets more complicated than that because rural residents living within Ottawa's boundaries pay substantially less for transit through their property taxes. Of course, this is because they receive very limited or no local OC service. There is no all-day service offered (usually at a significant loss even in the urban area).

We can talk all we want about subsidies, but I contend that we have a much bigger problem with Cumberland and Stittsville residents paying exactly the same fare as someone living in Vanier.

The question remains, is there an advantage of encouraging transit use over driving? Those rural residents who do use our transit system obviously would otherwise be using our urban roads. There is a cost to road congestion both in maintaining and expanding roads as necessary and to those urban residents who must share those roads.

We can discuss how we can reduce subsidies, but everybody who uses our roads and our transit system is being subsidized to varying degrees.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Let me try and put it another way. I’ll use round numbers to make the math easier but you can substitute the real numbers:

Let’s say an OC Transpo pass costs $150 and 10% of the rural bus users transfer to OC Transpo. If the Rural agency gives OC Transpo $15 per monthly pass sold to allow anyone to transfer to OC Transpo, but only 1 in 10 do, OC Transpo isn’t out of pocket compared to having sold passes to only 10% of the riders.

That’s the way the current pricing was designed. The problem is:

1. The price was never adjusted with fare increases
2. With the Confederation line and no bus lanes, OC Transpo is concerned that the number of transfers will jump

What people here are saying is, work out a new deal that is fair to OC Transpo yet doesn’t force everyone currently taking a rural bus to start driving (which is also bad for Ottawa).

That model does not work though when sprawl becomes substantial. 10% of transfers worked fine when the downtown core itself was the destination for many rural commuters. That definitely won't be the case with LRT. And you could well see a lot of rural commuters simply transferring at the earliest LRT station (Blair today and Trim in the future) just so the can get downtown or even across town faster, without sitting on a bus stuck in slowing moving traffic on the Queensway.

This is why I argue that OC Transpo is right to change the model. The terminus stations can become hubs for rural bus services. Trim or Place D'Orleans could be a hub for CRT, the same way that Finch Station is a hub for YRT/VIVA. There's no need to offer discounts.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That model does not work though when sprawl becomes substantial. 10% of transfers worked fine when the downtown core itself was the destination for many rural commuters. That definitely won't be the case with LRT. And you could well see a lot of rural commuters simply transferring at the earliest LRT station (Blair today and Trim in the future) just so the can get downtown or even across town faster, without sitting on a bus stuck in slowing moving traffic on the Queensway.

This is why I argue that OC Transpo is right to change the model. The terminus stations can become hubs for rural bus services. Trim or Place D'Orleans could be a hub for CRT, the same way that Finch Station is a hub for YRT/VIVA. There's no need to offer discounts.

But as you've pointed out, Ottawa is not Toronto. Rockland is by far the biggest exurb in Ottawa, and it generates a whopping 10 trips between two bus routes. They are not YRT, which serves a population larger than Ottawa itself. We'd spend more on the lawyers to renegotiate the deals then the costs imposed by the subsidy claimed, even if every single rural commuter transfers. The ROI isn't there to change the status quo, and because Ottawa still has tons of room to sprawl within it's existing borders, worrying about kemptville, carleton place, etc won't be a problem for decades.

[lrt's friend]

I have spoken about this before. What happens if STO starts dumping most of its passengers at Bayview and expect the Confederation Line to take them into downtown? Who pays for this? As it stands, STO pays for passengers to go into downtown through its own service. And it is more than the absolute cost being switched over to the OC system, but also the loss of long-term capacity of the Confederation Line and the tunnel. This is why I have been hoping that any STO LRT plan includes direct access into downtown Ottawa, so their passengers are not filling our Confederation Line trains. Also, for the convenience of Gatineau residents, to avoid an Ottawa transfer.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

But as you've pointed out, Ottawa is not Toronto. Rockland is by far the biggest .

Clarence-Rockland Transpo only carries 10 passengers a day? Is that what you're saying?

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Clarence-Rockland Transpo only carries 10 passengers a day? Is that what you're saying?

10 trips not 10 passengers

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I have spoken about this before. What happens if STO starts dumping most of its passengers at Bayview and expect the Confederation Line to take them into downtown? Who pays for this? As it stands, STO pays for passengers to go into downtown through its own service. And it is more than the absolute cost being switched over to the OC system, but also the loss of long-term capacity of the Confederation Line and the tunnel. This is why I have been hoping that any STO LRT plan includes direct access into downtown Ottawa, so their passengers are not filling our Confederation Line trains. Also, for the convenience of Gatineau residents, to avoid an Ottawa transfer.

This is a good question, but there is no way the STO could do this (dump its passengers at Bayview) without OC Transpo's or at least the City of Ottawa's accord. I assume that STO routings in Ottawa are negotiated with Ottawa authorities.

Yes, STO buses can probably *drive* anywhere they want in Ottawa, but picking up and dropping off passengers on official routings and installing bus stops they likely can't do unilaterally.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is a good question, but there is no way the STO could do this (dump its passengers at Bayview) without OC Transpo's or at least the City of Ottawa's accord. I assume that STO routings in Ottawa are negotiated with Ottawa authorities.

Yes, STO buses can probably *drive* anywhere they want in Ottawa, but picking up and dropping off passengers on official routings and installing bus stops they likely can't do unilaterally.

There is nothing preventing STO from dropping passengers off wherever they want, but OC Transpo could terminate the reciprocal agreement with STO, making such a plan unworkable.

This is beyond the scope of this thread though.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That model does not work though when sprawl becomes substantial. 10% of transfers worked fine when the downtown core itself was the destination for many rural commuters. That definitely won't be the case with LRT. And you could well see a lot of rural commuters simply transferring at the earliest LRT station (Blair today and Trim in the future) just so the can get downtown or even across town faster, without sitting on a bus stuck in slowing moving traffic on the Queensway.

Is this a huge problem with GO bus service in Toronto? Do most passengers get off the bus early and use the TTC to travel the rest of the way?

If you look at the "Report to Councel" quoted in post #1, it says:

most users implied they would stop using the service altogether if a transfer was added (Transit user survey Results in the Transit Feasibility Study). If the service would continue as it is with no transfers, longer commute times would be in effect due to the removal of bus-only lanes.

As a result, the evidence so far is that the majority of pasengers wouldn't transfer.

This is why I argue that OC Transpo is right to change the model. The terminus stations can become hubs for rural bus services. Trim or Place D'Orleans could be a hub for CRT, the same way that Finch Station is a hub for YRT/VIVA. There's no need to offer discounts.

I agree the deal needs to change. I even said they need to "work out a new deal that is fair to OC Transpo."

Optimally they should do studies (potentially using Presto data) to determine the percentage of travellers that transfer, and use that percentage to determine the transfer payment (this means the rural buses can't use fare paid zones). It also needs to be pro-rated to changes in bus fare by OC Transpo. That to me would be fair. The formula could go something like this:

S = P x T / N

where:
S = Subsidy paid to OC Transpo
P = Cost of OC Transpo Monthly Pass
T = Number of people who transfer to OC Transpo
N = Number of rural passes sold.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Is this a huge problem with GO bus service in Toronto? Do most passengers get off the bus early and use the TTC to travel the rest of the way?

If you look at the "Report to Councel" quoted in post #1, it says:


As a result, the evidence so far is that the majority of pasengers wouldn't transfer.

The proper comparison here isn't to GO in Toronto. It's to the other services around Toronto such as the YRT, DRT, MiWay, BT, etc. And they interact with the TTC exactly as I described above. Toronto does not let YRT run buses all the way to the downtown core.

GO gets a pass as a provincial service and all its passengers who do transfer are counterpeak out of Union, with other transfer points almost negligible.

So if that's the model, and rural Ottawa bus services want, they can direct all their pax to the core and then get discounted transfers at 2-3 stations in the core. I doubt, they'll agree to that. Alternatively, they get integrated into terminus stations and don't get discounts. Those are the only choices they should get. And they can all get together and pick one model.

The accounting gimmickry where subsidies are paid to OC Transpo is also ridiculous. They pay OC Transpo to offer discounts to their passengers? Why? Get rid of that nonsense and treat them the same as every other OC Transpo passenger.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The proper comparison here isn't to GO in Toronto. It's to the other services around Toronto such as the YRT, DRT, MiWay, BT, etc. And they interact with the TTC exactly as I described above. Toronto does not let YRT run buses all the way to the downtown core.

Why do you say that? Just because they aren't paid for by the provincial government? First of all, unlike the agencies you listed, the Rural bus lines primary purpose is not to provide transportation within the community they serve, but to provide committer service to Ottawa.

Secondly, using this list of communities served by rural partners, here are the shortest (not necessarily fastest) distances from downtown Ottawa (I used Bank and Queen):

Clarence-Rockland	39.5

Russell			40.3

Limoges			44.2

Embrun			44.5

Bourget			50.6

Almonte			52.2

Carleton Place		52.5

Kemptville		54.2

Casselman		56.4

Pakenham		58.3

St. Albert		58.3

Arnprior		66.9

Finch			67.5

Merrickville		75.1

St. Isidore		75.5

Morrisburg		78.7

Hawkesbury		95.4

Alexandria		99.8

Cornwall		103

Even the closest of these (Clarence-Rockland) is equivalent in distance to Union Station from Ajax (39 km), Markham (39.1 km) and Oakville (36.9 km). Those are all well within the purview of GO Transit with regards to commuters to Toronto.

Are there differences between these lines and GO Transit? Of course, but they are much more similar than these lines are to Transit agencies that you are trying to compare them to.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

So if that's the model, and rural Ottawa bus services want, they can direct all their pax to the core and then get discounted transfers at 2-3 stations in the core. I doubt, they'll agree to that. Alternatively, they get integrated into terminus stations and don't get discounts. Those are the only choices they should get. And they can all get together and pick one model.

I suspect they will like that much better than OC Transpo's current offer, which is bupkis.

[lrt's friend]

The value to rural partners is provide service directly to downtown. For those who use transfer stations away from downtown, they already likely pay full fare to transfer to OC. The point is that once rural partners lose access to downtown, they lose most of the purpose of their existence. Must users do not want to transfer to LRT on the outskirts of the city, because of the risks it imposes on outbound trips. Even if they can calculate the time to reach the transfer station, one temporary shutdown of LRT may leave these people stranded. Once stranded, how do you regain customer confidence?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The value to rural partners is provide service directly to downtown. For those who use transfer stations away from downtown, they already likely pay full fare to transfer to OC. The point is that once rural partners lose access to downtown, they lose most of the purpose of their existence. Must users do not want to transfer to LRT on the outskirts of the city, because of the risks it imposes on outbound trips. Even if they can calculate the time to reach the transfer station, one temporary shutdown of LRT may leave these people stranded. Once stranded, how do you regain customer confidence?

If there is a general and unexpected midday shutdown of the LRT there will be a pretty general state of chaos throughout the city. Not sure that rural partners would be particularly adversely affected.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

If there is a general and unexpected midday shutdown of the LRT there will be a pretty general state of chaos throughout the city. Not sure that rural partners would be particularly adversely affected.

That is only true if they are allowed to continue to run buses downtown.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

That is only true if they are allowed to continue to run buses downtown.

There is nothing prohibiting them from running buses downtown. They just will no longer have any bus lanes, a transitway, or, in most cases, an HOV lane that they can use to avoid getting stuck in traffic. That’s the biggest issue to them.

[Dengler Avenue]

Something just occurred to me:
With LRT slated to open Winter 2019, will the Queensway still be as congested during rush hour?

[SkeggsEggs]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Something just occurred to me:
With LRT slated to open Winter 2019, will the Queensway still be as congested during rush hour?

Yup!