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  #161  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2014, 3:29 AM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Stage II isn't some election promise Watson pulled out of his ass; it's been part of the City's updated official transportation plan since October 2013. It's not a political document and I'm pretty sure that the Orleans and Bayshore extensions are currently being studied. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Yep, the EAs on them were started earlier this year (in February I believe) and lots of progress has been made on them. In another year and a half they'll be tender ready.

Phase 2 was approved a year before the election. Hardly an election gimmick. The Place D'Orleans extension stems from a resolution passed by council way back in 2011 or 2012 (can't remember) that they seek to 'advance LRT to Orleans at the earliest stage possible'.
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  #162  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2014, 3:36 AM
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The right track? Explaining Ottawa's western LRT debate — what you should know

Matthew Pearson and Joanne Chianello, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: November 28, 2014, Last Updated: November 28, 2014 7:41 PM EST




It’s been a week since the National Capital Commission held a dramatic news conference that some feared might spell the end of the city’s plan for light rail in the west end.

That’s not the case, and this week, both Mayor Jim Watson and Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird — the senior Ottawa MP who oversees the NCC — vowed to dial back the rhetoric, committing to “taking the next 100 days to continue to work constructively.”

But while there’s more calm on the political front, questions remain over exactly what the city is proposing and what the NCC is demanding.

Some of the confusion can be laid at the feet of the NCC — the board’s request that the city consider a different route was based on a secret analysis prepared by its own staff. The NCC has said it used the city’s data, but refused to give the Citizen of copy of that report.

And during its media presentation last week, the NCC included images in its slide-show presentation that were misleading. The picture of the tunnel supplied by the NCC clearly is unfinished and bears no resemblance to the finished product the city is proposing. Another image of a train running through a field was taken from an older city proposal that is no longer being considered.

Still, it’s hard to keep up with the twists and turns in the western LRT saga. Here’s the latest information on the city’s plans, what the NCC is worried about and where we go from here.

What is this western LRT dispute between the NCC and the city about?

The dispute centres on where tracks will be laid between Dominion Station and the new Cleary Station. The city’s preferred route is to run trains along 1.2 kilometres of NCC land on the south side of the four-lane Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway (and hundreds of metres from the shore of the Ottawa River). The NCC is not pleased with this idea because it fears for the loss of mature trees, impeded access to the river and restricted views from the shoreline.

That said, the commission is generally supportive of light rail for Ottawa, but it’s this 1.2-kilometre stretch that remains the sticking point.

How is the city addressing these concerns?

The city’s original draft for western LRT plans released in April 2013 showed the train running along the surface of that greenspace, right in front of a number of homes. That just wasn’t OK with the public, who came out in droves to a meeting at City Hall (and stayed until midnight). By June, the city had redesigned the controversial 1.2-kilometre segment so that the 700 metres of the track that was near homes would be built in a shallow, buried trench. The city is proposing to plant new greenery right over top of the shallow train tunnel so pedestrians would be able to walk across that segment of the greenspace as easily as they can today, according to deputy city manager Nancy Schepers.



However, there’s still an issue with the 500 metres where the train would run generally at grade along the northern edge of Rochester Field. Schepers confirmed there have been discussions between the city and the NCC about extending the shallow tunnel across the entire 1.2 kilometres in question, but there are some challenges with that.

“There’s already physical infrastructure that has to be protected,” said Schepers. “So, within that, we’re trying to find the best grade to go through there.”

What does the NCC want changed?

Given its desire to protect the existing greenspace along the parkway, the NCC last week asked the city to include the Rochester Field-Richmond Road alignment in its ongoing environmental assessment for the construction of the western light rail corridor or else consider a “completely buried” tunnel under the parkway in order to “protect this important national asset.”

In other words, the NCC did not completely slam the door on the city’s preferred route along the Ottawa River — but the commission is clearly not convinced of the city’s plan.

Why does the NCC say Rochester Field is a better option?

Using Rochester Field would retain the parkway landscape character as is, reduce the amount of NCC-owned land affected by light rail and expansion and bring trains closer to the communities it’s designed to serve, according to NCC officials said.


“It would offer potential for more effective transit service coverage, support city building, can contribute to increased ridership, and has greater potential for transit-oriented development,” said Arto Keklikian, the NCC’s chief transportation planner, at last week’s news conference.

But this is a red herring. Because there are no stations between Dominion and Cleary — the proposed stations on either side of the Richmond Underground — the route in between matters little in terms of the public’s access to the train. In which case, the city says, running trains south of the parkway makes more sense than through a built-up part of the city.

Where does the NCC say the train should go after leaving Rochester Field?

The board appears to be agnostic on this question. “The NCC is not taking a position on what happens after it gets off the Parkway corridor,” according to Steve Willis, the executive director of the NCC’s capital planning branch.

“That’s a technical issue the city should study and the board has not taken a position on whether it stays at surface, goes down, where it goes down. We’re asking the city to go back and study this feasibility,” he said last week.

The NCC says the Rochester Field option would be comparable to the city’s pricetag of $980 million for western LRT, but that’s only if the train is run at surface through Westboro, which the city has rejected because it’s unpalatable to the community.

Who sits on the NCC’s board of directors?

The board is supposed to have 15 members, including the chairman and CEO. Thirteen members are to come from across Canada, including five from the National Capital Region. There is currently one vacancy on the board, while another member, François Paulhus, temporarily stepped down more than a year ago after a witness testifying before the Charbonneau Commission investigating corruption in Quebec’s construction industry named him as part of a price-fixing scheme in Gatineau (Paulhus has not been charged with anything). Of those remaining, six are from Ottawa — Jacquelin Holzman, Michael Poliwoda, Kay Stanley and Bob Plamondon, as well as chairman Russ Mills and CEO Mark Kristmanson. A seventh is from the Outaouais. The remaining five come from Cornwall, Toronto, Fredericton, Quebec City, Edmonton and Vancouver.

The city was sent a copy of the NCC report. What did officials think of it?

“It’s premature and, certainly in my mind, there wasn’t anything there that I would have comfort going back to council and saying, ‘We need to re-open this.’ I think they prematurely came to a conclusion without the benefit of all of the work that we are doing and plan to continue to do with them,” Schepers said.

Baird and Watson agreed to work co-operatively toward a solution over the next 100 days. What does that mean?

High-ranking officials from both the city and the NCC will meet next week to develop a plan for moving forward. From the city’s perspective, the goal is to alleviate some of the NCC board’s concerns about the Richmond Underground.

“The fact that they have a report suggests that they are not yet satisfied and we need to do some more work, and that’s fair,” Schepers said.

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http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...ou-should-know
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  #163  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2014, 3:34 PM
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
The right track? Explaining Ottawa's western LRT debate — what you should know

Matthew Pearson and Joanne Chianello, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: November 28, 2014, Last Updated: November 28, 2014 7:41 PM EST






http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...ou-should-know
Dunno, the pic on the lower left looks good to me. It definitely looks preferable to the huge swath of destruction being implied by the tunnel-building images accompanying it.
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  #164  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2014, 7:39 PM
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Dunno, the pic on the lower left looks good to me. It definitely looks preferable to the huge swath of destruction being implied by the tunnel-building images accompanying it.
It's a permanent impediment vs. a temporary nuisance.
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  #165  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 5:02 AM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
As for the Dominion to Lincoln Fields portion, I'm predicting that in March Baird and Watson will announce a new "compromise", likely a shallow tunnel under the ORP between Dominion and Cleary, raising the price tag by maybe 100 million instead of 400 million. To make up the difference, the City might decide on one new station at Woodroffe instead of the original 2 (Cleary and New Orchard).
Awesome! Reduced utility and functionality for bullshit aesthetic and "national" reasons!

Abolish the NCC. Abolish abolish abolish.
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  #166  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 2:49 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Stage II isn't some election promise Watson pulled out of his ass; it's been part of the City's updated official transportation plan since October 2013. It's not a political document and I'm pretty sure that the Orleans and Bayshore extensions are currently being studied. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

And the province has consistently been saying that the money is on the table when needed, and with an election in 2015 for the feds, the year OT will likely be asking for funding and a provincial election in 2018, the year Stage II is scheduled to start construction, you bet your ass we will get the 2/3 needed.

As for the Dominion to Lincoln Fields portion, I'm predicting that in March Baird and Watson will announce a new "compromise", likely a shallow tunnel under the ORP between Dominion and Cleary, raising the price tag by maybe 100 million instead of 400 million. To make up the difference, the City might decide on one new station at Woodroffe instead of the original 2 (Cleary and New Orchard).

As for Watson's contribution for phase I, he didn't cut a station from the plan, he only re-routed the tunnel to Queen and moved Rideau Station 2 blocks east under Rideau. And yes, those were prudent moves and have kept the budget in line.
I would be surprised if the compromise impacts the project that much. While the NCC has the negotiating power in a bureaucratic sense (phase 2 needs to cross federal lands), Watson has all the political cards at this point with the imminent federal election where several local Con MPs are vulnerable.

I think the most likely outcome is Baird, along with Galipeau etc, will almost completely shoot down the NCC and assure Ottawa that hey are onboard with the project.
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  #167  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 3:30 PM
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I was driving down the parkway this weekend and closely looked at the route the city has proposed, and to be honest, I am pretty disappointed. I thought that the strip of land was wider, but it is really narrow, and I dont see how everything will piece together. I am actually warming up to the NCCs proposal to use Rochester Field.
If that route is taken, the city can start to make Richmond a 'complete street' by doing, as mentioned a few times before, a shallow cut and cover. If they took the roof and made it into bike paths and walkways surely the community would be on board and the reduction in the width of Richmond and it might have a traffic calming affect. In reality, no part of Richmond should be more than 2 lanes anyways, it isnt busy enough.
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  #168  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 3:58 PM
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I was driving down the parkway this weekend and closely looked at the route the city has proposed, and to be honest, I am pretty disappointed. I thought that the strip of land was wider, but it is really narrow, and I dont see how everything will piece together. I am actually warming up to the NCCs proposal to use Rochester Field.
If that route is taken, the city can start to make Richmond a 'complete street' by doing, as mentioned a few times before, a shallow cut and cover. If they took the roof and made it into bike paths and walkways surely the community would be on board and the reduction in the width of Richmond and it might have a traffic calming affect. In reality, no part of Richmond should be more than 2 lanes anyways, it isnt busy enough.
Same here. It provides better connections (assuming stations are realigned as has been suggested in this thread) and is almost certainly doable for about the same budget given that the current/rejected plan has a bored tunnel for about two-thirds of the distance from Lincoln Fields to Rochester Field anyway (replacing that with a cut and cover should be plenty to offset the extra costs of a cut and cover for the remaining third).
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  #169  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 4:30 PM
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I was driving down the parkway this weekend and closely looked at the route the city has proposed, and to be honest, I am pretty disappointed. I thought that the strip of land was wider, but it is really narrow, and I dont see how everything will piece together.
Looks narrow at the moment because of the trees (most would have to go which is ironic as the city argues the route would save the trees on Byron), . A few years ago, I did a video of that corridor on a mountain bike:

Video Link
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  #170  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 5:10 PM
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The LRT line would come closest to the Parkway at the west end, more or less opposite the west end of townhouse complex and the east end of the 5-storey condo. The eastbound carriageway might need to be realigned slightly there, though it depends on where the line begins to curve in towards Cleary.

What's not commonly realized is that Skead Street is built on the former CPR RoW and takes up about half of that RoW. I determined a few years ago that the remnants of the railbed lie just to the north of NCC's "access-facilitating" fence* along Skead, at least at the east end.

This blog post from yesterday on Ottawa Rewind shows this well, and you can see that Skead didn't used to exist:

Remains of 140 year old Canadian Pacific Railway on NCC Parkway/

One effect of the presence of Skead is that it would push "out" any LRT line away from the residential areas, so this oft-repeated "15' behind my back fence" claim is just nonsense. It simply could not be any closer than 50' short of running the line on Skead itself. I suspect they take "15 m" (i.e. 50') and interpret it as "15'".


*In light of the fact that Skead is a relatively new addition to the street network, ask yourself just why it is that the NCC put a fence there to separate it from the Parkway. What possible purpose is served by it?
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  #171  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 5:13 PM
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Looks narrow at the moment because of the trees (most would have to go which is ironic as the city argues the route would save the trees on Byron), . A few years ago, I did a video of that corridor on a mountain bike:
Not as bad as the NCC's ironic "we don't want trains in a shallow tunnel/ditch along the parkway but we don't care if you run your 120 meter trains on Richmond/Byron Strip and slow down the system to a crawl". The NCC's mandate is to build a better capital all around, not just protect federal land.
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  #172  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 5:52 PM
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Same here. It provides better connections (assuming stations are realigned as has been suggested in this thread) and is almost certainly doable for about the same budget given that the current/rejected plan has a bored tunnel for about two-thirds of the distance from Lincoln Fields to Rochester Field anyway (replacing that with a cut and cover should be plenty to offset the extra costs of a cut and cover for the remaining third).
If it doesnt there are some actuarials at fault. And in reailty, a cut and cover should save money no? So would this not be cheaper because the bored tunnel that would go for a few kilometers?
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  #173  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 6:28 PM
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Same here. It provides better connections (assuming stations are realigned as has been suggested in this thread) and is almost certainly doable for about the same budget given that the current/rejected plan has a bored tunnel for about two-thirds of the distance from Lincoln Fields to Rochester Field anyway (replacing that with a cut and cover should be plenty to offset the extra costs of a cut and cover for the remaining third).
Eh? Where have you read that it would be bored?

From everything I have seen the tunnel would be too shallow to be bored.
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  #174  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 6:34 PM
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I'm not too sure, I'm not familiar with the exact cost differences but I do know that cut and cover is cheaper than boring. I don't know how 1.6km of bored tunnel (the original plan) compares to 2.4km of cut and cover (the new plan we're proposing here).
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  #175  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 6:36 PM
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Eh? Where have you read that it would be bored?

From everything I have seen the tunnel would be too shallow to be bored.
In one of the EA meetings, someone asked about the traffic impacts to Richmond of the Richmond Underground route and the response was that it would be "dug out from inside like the tunnel downtown". I assume that means boring.
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  #176  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 6:53 PM
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That does sound like boring or mining out, but it doesn't jive with their own images:

http://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/doc...neworchard.pdf

There's just not enough clearance to mine out a tunnel unless they go deeper than depicted most of the rest of the way to Cleary.

There are no images of the line west of New Orchard, but there it will have to go under where Richmond currently is (they could shift Richmond permanently to the north).
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  #177  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 7:46 PM
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That does sound like boring or mining out, but it doesn't jive with their own images:

http://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/doc...neworchard.pdf

There's just not enough clearance to mine out a tunnel unless they go deeper than depicted most of the rest of the way to Cleary.

There are no images of the line west of New Orchard, but there it will have to go under where Richmond currently is (they could shift Richmond permanently to the north).
The way that image looks... almost seems like a cut and cover through the park... How strange.
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  #178  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 8:00 PM
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Ya, it does. My guess is that from Woodroffe to New Orchard it would be under the park, and elsewhere (east of Woodroffe and west of New Orchard) it would be under Richmond.
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  #179  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 11:43 PM
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Yep, the EAs on them were started earlier this year (in February I believe) and lots of progress has been made on them. In another year and a half they'll be tender ready.

Phase 2 was approved a year before the election. Hardly an election gimmick. The Place D'Orleans extension stems from a resolution passed by council way back in 2011 or 2012 (can't remember) that they seek to 'advance LRT to Orleans at the earliest stage possible'.
Yes, governments never introduce election gimmicks a year before an election, just prudent economic planning the tories spent the surplus last month.

"ready for tender in a year and a half" seems pretty ambitious.

Orleans EA isn't supposed to be done until Spring 16 (http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public...ew-august-2014) and the bayshore extension isn't supposed to be done until the end of next year (http://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/doc...h1_db_2_en.pdf) so it seems fairly unlikely it would be ready for tender in a year and a half (Confederation Line EA was approved in Summer 2010 and a shortlist of bidders took another year). And of course there are no specific funding commitments from either the federal or provincial governments (something both had done in 2009 for the confederation line). I couldn't find information about when the city planned other steps required for tender (preliminary engineering, preliminary design, geotechnical studies)

It seems a best case scenario "phase 2" is where the confederation line was in early 2009 (route mostly planned but details TBC, no specific funding commitments, ea underway) which would mean 3-4 years from contract signing would be a reasonable guess. In a less than best case scenario (disputes over the route take longer than expected, feds, city and province do not agree on money, bids come in higher than expected, etc) it could take considerably longer.
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  #180  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2014, 1:50 AM
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Originally Posted by MoreTrains View Post
I was driving down the parkway this weekend and closely looked at the route the city has proposed, and to be honest, I am pretty disappointed. I thought that the strip of land was wider, but it is really narrow, and I dont see how everything will piece together. I am actually warming up to the NCCs proposal to use Rochester Field.
If that route is taken, the city can start to make Richmond a 'complete street' by doing, as mentioned a few times before, a shallow cut and cover. If they took the roof and made it into bike paths and walkways surely the community would be on board and the reduction in the width of Richmond and it might have a traffic calming affect. In reality, no part of Richmond should be more than 2 lanes anyways, it isnt busy enough.
I agree with this too. ...except I would cut and cover over Byron road/street. Richmond is only that vibrant because of the amount of people there, some of whom only go there because of the short term street parking.
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