National Victims of Communism Memorial | U/C

[Aylmer]

Regardless of whether communism sucks or capitalism is the bestest, I think it's irrelevant enough to Canada that it (1) doesn't require a multimillion dollar monument and (2) doesn't require a multimillion dollar monument in the middle of the parliamentary precinct.

If they want this monument, fine. But god damn, find somewhere else to put it so that we don't need to stare at it every day as if the struggle against communism were somehow an integral piece of our national history and narrative.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Regardless of whether communism sucks or capitalism is the bestest, I think it's irrelevant enough to Canada that it (1) doesn't require a multimillion dollar monument and (2) doesn't require a multimillion dollar monument in the middle of the parliamentary precinct.

If they want this monument, fine. But god damn, find somewhere else to put it so that we don't need to stare at it every day as if the struggle against communism were somehow an integral piece of our national history and narrative.

I agree re the monument and the poor choice of location, but the purpose is to honour victims of communism, not to honour the struggle against communism, if I understand it correctly.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Art_Vandelay

I get people not liking Conservatives. I understand the appeal of socialism but surely we can agree that communism is bad...and yes capitalism with all its warts is better.

The concept of Communism isn't bad. The problem lies in the people who assume power.

The difference with Capitalism is that you have a few thousand corrupt "leaders" in public office or running private corporations. There is something inherently wrong in closing down a Wal-Mart in Joliette Qc because employees are trying to unionize, layoff 30,000 people working in a couple of GM plants because it's cheaper to run a factory in Timbuktu or having a CEO of a bank get a billion dollar bonus after a year of thousands of foreclosures, near bankruptcy and a government bailout.

Don't get me started with the private healthcare system in the U.S. You shouldn't have to choose between keeping your house or cancer treatments for your kid.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I agree re the monument and the poor choice of location, but the purpose is to honour victims of communism, not to honour the struggle against communism, if I understand it correctly.

Therein lies the shameless pandering to the large electorate of ethnic Slavs, Poles and especially Ukrainians. The government's heart would bleed just as freely for the victims of capitalism if there were enough Nicaraguans, Chileans and Thai voters to justify it.

And more than anything, THAT is what I can't stand.

[movebyleap]

Ha! I am of Polish heritage. My parents escaped the Communist regime. Most of our family friends are also Polish. Without exception,we all find this monument hideous, unnecessary and a colossal waste of money. We would MUCH rather see these funds allocated to building a beautiful new Science and Tech Museum, library, or aquarium!

[Aylmer]

Then I suggest you write exactly that to the PM. These letters carry a lot more weight than people think and could make the difference between rushing the project along and stalling it until such time as it can be killed or moved by the next government (probably accompanied by much feigned hand-ringing and gnashing of teeth from the CPC).

[Mikeed]

I just would like to point out no state in history has actually achieved communism. They have all been socialist totalitarian believing they are on the road to full communism and the elimination of the State itself.

This whole monument and debate is esoteric and needless.

So is communism bad? I'm not sure I would say yes- but history has shown that, the mechanics of achieving a of communist society perverses into totalitarianism. Totalitarianism you- I- could make a concrete statement saying is without question bad. But you can have a totalitarian state that is capitalist or communist.

The theory of communism comes from Marx writing (and others before him) in the 19th century but it was in the 20th century, about ~40 years after his death and ~100 years after his birth, before we saw the first States arise with the goal of implementing a communist society. Currently only Cuba and N.Korea could be called "Communist", though still only socialist. China is more neo-fascist then communist.

That being said- capitalism, all though raising the standard of living for 100s of millions faster than any other system in human history has some serious flaws. One being it relies on the rampant destruction and privatization of the "commons"- like the environment and air we breath. So fast forward a 100 years to 2115 children might not be viewing the current age of rampant and accelerating capitalist global consumerism as a good thing. (If we are still on this planet- yes, that is a very real possibility.)

See how needless and esoteric this whole thing is?
lol

TLDR. We should have no monument but if we are going to build a monument it should be to the victims of Totalitarianism. Actually, the holocaust and monument to the victims of totalitarianism could share the same grounds, as they are one and the same.

[Temperance]

Originally Posted by Art_Vandelay

I get people not liking Conservatives. I understand the appeal of socialism but surely we can agree that communism is bad...and yes capitalism with all its warts is better.

Communism is an ideology - has every communist regime ever committed mass atrocities? It would have made sense to have a monument to victims of totalitarianism and include all all tyrannical regimes. And yes, having giant blown up photo montages of corpses on Wellington is a terrible idea. For one thing I would question the ethics of displaying photographs of the dead if they (or at minimum their families) did not give consent.

I'm all for having a monument to victims of mass atrocities (I work at an institute for the study of genocide) but focusing it on an ideology (which actually does not call for mass killings) is not appropriate. Moreover, both the site and the design of the monument will be detrimental to confederation boulevard.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Then I suggest you write exactly that to the PM. These letters carry a lot more weight than people think and could make the difference between rushing the project along and stalling it until such time as it can be killed or moved by the next government (probably accompanied by much feigned hand-ringing and gnashing of teeth from the CPC).

Even better: if your local MP is a Conservative, write to him/her.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Art_Vandelay

but surely we can agree that communism is bad...and yes capitalism with all its warts is better.

The family unit is communism in its purest form — members (namely parents) contribute according to their ability, and each one, more or less, takes according to their need. There is nothing evil about the concept. A capitalist model would have parents keep tabs on their kids and charge them later, with interest.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The family unit is communism in its purest form — members (namely parents) contribute according to their ability, and each one, more or less, takes according to their need. There is nothing evil about the concept. A capitalist model would have parents keep tabs on their kids and charge them later, with interest.

Compounded interest 2-3% above the National rate and even higher if the children worked at McDonalds instead of a Law Firm.

The idea that we should be attributing all atrocities that were committed in the name of communism to the actual ideology is absurd. It would be more appropriate to have monuments to the victims of dictators, which are the reason that there were victims in the first place... not to take any blame away from Capitalism, because that shits pretty bad too, but its mainstream. Plus a giant mural of dead bodies, not necessarily due to communism itself, is poorly thought out. And I believe the photo is from Cambodia.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

Compounded interest 2-3% above the National rate and even higher if the children worked at McDonalds instead of a Law Firm.

The idea that we should be attributing all atrocities that were committed in the name of communism to the actual ideology is absurd. It would be more appropriate to have monuments to the victims of dictators, which are the reason that there were victims in the first place... not to take any blame away from Capitalism, because that shits pretty bad too, but its mainstream. Plus a giant mural of dead bodies, not necessarily due to communism itself, is poorly thought out. And I believe the photo is from Cambodia.

The question arises as to why we should have monuments to foreign victims at all? Why not an uplifting monument to liberty and Canadian values and the better lives that people have established here?

Edit: Although I still wouldn't plant it on that site on Wellington.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The question arises as to why we should have monuments to foreign victims at all? Why not an uplifting monument to liberty and Canadian values and the better lives that people have established here?

Edit: Although I still wouldn't plant it on that site on Wellington.

Because, foreign victims are Canadian victims, anytime somebody thinks of freedom they think of Canada and in that moment they are Canadian! If that isnt the reason, I have no clue what is.
The only way to sell something like that is a 'Monument to Canadian Families' if I remember the Rhetoric of our current King correctly.

[acottawa]

The thing is, there are large numbers of Canadians A) of Polish, Ukrainian, German, Korean, Vietnamese, Chinese and maybe even Russian origin who felt rather hard done by communism. B) There are also many Canadians from countries where communism was an actual political force that had a tendency to blow stuff up or a history of civil wars involving communists (Italy, Greece, much of Latin America) where a large part of the community has a very anti-communist sentiment.

C) On the other hand, people who oppose the monument are divided between:
1) People who think communism was good and the so-called victims deserve what they got
2) Ignorant upper middle class privileged hipsters who spend lots of time on rabble.ca, but have very little grasp of what they're talking about (ironically, the exact type that tends to be among the first victims when communists take over)
3) People who believe that parking lot should be preserved until such a time as some future PM decides the tax court really needs to be in that spot.
4) People who think it is another stupid politically motivated monument to go with all the other stupid, politically motivated monuments around town (this is where I tend to fall)
5) People who have no objection to the monument per se, but don't like the location, or don't like the design.

So the government has decided it can get some benefit from catering to Group A and Group B. The opposition does not want to risk pissing off those voters, so is supporting the monument and Group C is too hopelessly divided to stop it.

[Temperance]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There are also many Canadians from countries where communism was an actual political force that had a tendency to blow stuff up or a history of civil wars involving communists (Italy, Greece, much of Latin America) where a large part of the community has a very anti-communist sentiment.

This point illustrates in a nutshell some of the ideological problems with an anti-communism monument. In fact much of the mass killing done by regimes in Latin America in the past several decades was anti-Communist atrocities committed by fascist or right-wing regimes (i.e. Argentina, Nicaragua, Chile, etc.). In fact the impetus for mass Chilean immigration in the seventies was the pinochet regime (an American sponsored fascist regime) and many immigrants were actually left-wing or communist political refugees.

[1overcosc]

Or the Greek junta of the 1960s and 1970s--a fiercely totalitarian anti-communist regime also sponsored by the US. That's the reason why so many Greek people are anti-US. We saw that in the 2004 Olympics when the Greek audience gave a massive applaud to the teams from anti-US countries.

[Radster]

Originally Posted by movebyleap

Ha! I am of Polish heritage. My parents escaped the Communist regime. Most of our family friends are also Polish. Without exception,we all find this monument hideous, unnecessary and a colossal waste of money. We would MUCH rather see these funds allocated to building a beautiful new Science and Tech Museum, library, or aquarium!

Same for me. Born in Poland, and immigrated here at a young age with my parents. We share the same opinion regarding this monument. But at the same time, we don't mind, because the Holocaust Monument down the street will be even more visible/in your face and will cater to the zionist electorate (sorry, but Holocaust monument should NOT be in the shape of star of David, that is just insulting to more than half the victims of the Holocaust) . So if that Holocaust monstrosity is getting built, its only fair to build this commie one. Ideally, neither would be built, or if so, then they should be built somewhere less prominent, and in a much smaller scale, like on the War Museum terrain.

[lrt's friend]

Why are we building monuments for foreign events? This just opens a can of worms. What is worthy and what is not? Who can collect money for what event? This will get more controversial as we go down this path.

First the Holocaust, then the victims of communism. What next? The victims of trade unionism? This sounds increasingly political.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This sounds increasingly political.

acottawa summed it up nicely ...

Originally Posted by acottawa

So the government has decided it can get some benefit from catering to Group A and Group B. The opposition does not want to risk pissing off those voters, so is supporting the monument and Group C is too hopelessly divided to stop it.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Why are we building monuments for foreign events? This just opens a can of worms. What is worthy and what is not? Who can collect money for what event? This will get more controversial as we go down this path.

First the Holocaust, then the victims of communism. What next? The victims of trade unionism? This sounds increasingly political.

I think we should build a giant statue of Harper, just for the pleasure of later tearing it down.