Is Ottawa the City that Fun Forgot?

[EdFromOttawa]

[QUOTE=Mille Sabords;6515312]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Maybe it's time to update the Michelin Guide then. Being from France, I understand why they would have a bias toward Montréal and Québec City. I love both those places, but one star sounds low, in comparison, for the Market.

Not really....the Market can be walked through entirely (at least the worthwhile bits) in like an hour. It's pretty grungy most days with only a few quality restaurants... That being said, it is the highlight of the downtown....guess that says a lot about the downtown............

I'd take Vieux Montreal or the Quebec City waterfront over the market any day of the week.

Amongst the best in the world it is definitely not.

[ars]

[QUOTE=EdFromOttawa;6515861]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

Not really....the Market can be walked through entirely (at least the worthwhile bits) in like an hour. It's pretty grungy most days with only a few quality restaurants... That being said, it is the highlight of the downtown....guess that says a lot about the downtown............

I'd take Vieux Montreal or the Quebec City waterfront over the market any day of the week.

Amongst the best in the world it is definitely not.

I agree with this. The downtowns of both Quebec City and Montreal are leagues ahead of Ottawa. Maybe if Sparks street was something worth visiting, we might be in a better position, but, alas, it's not

[acottawa]

[QUOTE=EdFromOttawa;6515861]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

Not really....the Market can be walked through entirely (at least the worthwhile bits) in like an hour. It's pretty grungy most days with only a few quality restaurants... That being said, it is the highlight of the downtown....guess that says a lot about the downtown............

I'd take Vieux Montreal or the Quebec City waterfront over the market any day of the week.

Amongst the best in the world it is definitely not.

I think a few relatively small improvements could make it a lot better
a) Better infrastructure (paving, lighting and street furniture are worse than most commercial areas of the city and the stalls look like they were rejected by a refugee camp
b) A more consistent approach to law enforcement (cops show up every few months for a "blitz" and then disappear)
c) Way less surface parking (which would leave space for more patios, buskers, planters, kiosks, etc)
d) Partially closing streets (maybe with movable bollards) during busy times
e) Get rid of mother tuckers

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think a few relatively small improvements could make it a lot better
a) Better infrastructure (paving, lighting and street furniture are worse than most commercial areas of the city and the stalls look like they were rejected by a refugee camp

Why is it that when I make this point people argue and flip shit? Those stalls and the stores in front of them actually looked like something you'd find in a slum in a developing country (I did have a photo but I deleted it because the scene was so hideous), and I made that exact point earlier, but that offended people who believe that it's marvelous...

Also to point out, originally there was a thread about this documentary and topic posted earlier that got ignored: Hub Ottawa Doc & Discuss: The City that Fun Forgot. Perhaps they should be merged?
I went to this when it happened.

[McC]

Originally Posted by defishel

Why is it that when I make this point people argue and flip shit?

Because some people disagree with you, while others agree; isn't the world a wonderful place?

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by McC

isn't the world a wonderful place?

Hm, I would like to say nope? But I'm a glass-half-empty guy, so that's the reason why.

I mentioned this earlier, but I think Ottawans are largely complaisant with everything in this city, and that's largely what makes Ottawa "the city that fun forgot". People are so comfortable with what we have now that people don't want change to happen and will actively fight against it. Propose a skyscraper in Hintonburg or Centretown and people and their councillor scream bloody murder and that their community will be destroyed. Not to mention they don't take criticism of the city very well. Is this the attitude to a vibrant city?

While I will admit Ottawa is making progress and isn't complete crap, there is still so much work to be done, and taking a "Nope, Ottawa is perfect and the problem is with other people's attitude, not us" attitude isn't productive and will never ignite change that actually is needed to make this city more interesting and more livable.

Furthermore, clearly, people in Ottawa do think the Market is overrated (not everyone, I will acknowledge), and apparently Michelin hasn't rated it very well, but people here disagree and think it should be changed to match their own beliefs? Ottawa is the way it is because people allow it to be this way.

There, I said my piece. If you think I'm an idiot, fine. But them's my opinions.

Edit: Some words and sentences

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by defishel

Why is it that when I make this point people argue and flip shit? .

Sorry, I didn't intend to plagiarize, I didn't see your post (and certainly don't want to start a shit-flipping contest)

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Sorry, I didn't intend to plagiarize, I didn't see your post (and certainly don't want to start a shit-flipping contest)

Sorry, it's not against you. But I am pleased that I'm not the only one who thinks it looks run-down and dingy.

[EdFromOttawa]

Originally Posted by defishel

Hm, I would like to say nope? But I'm a glass-half-empty guy, so that's the reason why.

I mentioned this earlier, but I think Ottawans are largely complaisant with everything in this city, and that's largely what makes Ottawa "the city that fun forgot". People are so comfortable with what we have now that people don't want change to happen and will actively fight against it. Propose a skyscraper in Hintonburg or Centretown and people and their councillor scream bloody murder and that their community will be destroyed. Not to mention they don't take criticism of the city very well. Is this the attitude to a vibrant city?

While I will admit Ottawa is making progress and isn't complete crap, there is still so much work to be done, and taking a "Nope, Ottawa is perfect and the problem is with other people's attitude, not us" attitude isn't productive and will never ignite change that actually is needed to make this city more interesting and more livable.

Furthermore, clearly, people in Ottawa do think the Market is overrated (not everyone, I will acknowledge), and apparently Michelin hasn't rated it very well, but people here disagree and think it should be changed to match their own beliefs? Ottawa is the way it is because people allow it to be this way.

There, I said my piece. If you think I'm an idiot, fine. But them's my opinions.

Edit: Some words and sentences

This.... holy smokes I have never seen so much vehement indignation and wholesale aggressive protest against buildings taller than 9 floors... A new 50 floor condo goes up in Toronto like virtually every week...... small town mentality I tell ya....hurts the way the city looks in a fundamental way because developers are too afraid to move away from the small grey blocks that are the only designs that get approved... Where is the creative architecture in Ottawa???

To all the Ottawa defenders why isn't there SOMETHING COOL LIKE THIS IN OUR CITY?!

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by EdFromOttawa

This.... holy smokes I have never seen so much vehement indignation and wholesale aggressive protest against buildings taller than 9 floors... A new 50 floor condo goes up in Toronto like virtually every week...... small town mentality I tell ya....hurts the way the city looks in a fundamental way because developers are too afraid to move away from the small grey blocks that are the only designs that get approved... Where is the creative architecture in Ottawa???

To all the Ottawa defenders why isn't there SOMETHING COOL LIKE THIS IN OUR CITY?!

Thank you for validating me! (╥_╥)

I agree with what you say. Ottawa won't become a marvelous city if we keep trying to thwart any change.

[McC]

You poor muffin.

[McC]

The Libeskind ROM addition is a disgrace; it fails at its primary task: it is a building for displaying curated objects that offers poor spaces in which to display curated objects. It's a case in point failure of starchitecture, architects who fail to recognize that buildings are first and foremost works of craft not art: that is use objects to be rendered with artistry, not pieces of art for which all uses should be subsumed as secondary.

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by McC

The Libeskind ROM addition is a disgrace; it fails at its primary task: it is a building for displaying curated objects that offers poor spaces in which to display curated objects. It's a case in point failure of starchitecture, architects who fail to recognize that buildings are first and foremost works of craft not art: that is use objects to be rendered artistically, not pieces of art for which all uses should be subsumed as secondary.

Maybe in this case for the function of the building the shape isn't well-suited, but it's still possible to get great design/ landmarks that are also functional, and I think that was the point EdfromOttawa was making. We'll never get anything extraordinary if we keep fighting against change. The ROM may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's quite striking.

But yes, starchitects' hubris have become too huge that they're screwing us over and don't seem to care (ie. Gehry).

[McC]

Design that appears striking prima facie, but fails in its primary function deserves no praise. It is a failure.

[TOexpat]

Funny stuff Fish. I don't have the patience to spell out my thoughts like you, but pretty bang on.

I have lived for over a decade in the Market and there is no where else in Ottawa I would rather live. It is decent, some great points, but lots of area for improvement. The refugee row is apt. So annoying that if you work past six (I know crazy to all the 7-3ers) you walk past this desolate space in the centre of your city and then have to go past all the skids to the metro. What closes at 6 anymore? This is especially unfortunate as what is supposed to be the centre of the market - the square - is actually the worst part. A few good shops, but all the little kiosks suck. And yes, please close this off to traffic. So much nicer having pedestrian space.

Any case, the Market is ok - all that Ottawa can offer- but so much room for simple improvements.

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by McC

Design that appears striking prima facie, but fails in its primary function deserves no praise. It is a failure.

As a building that can only perform a portion of its duties, yes, it doesn't function very well. But as an architectural piece, no it isn't a failure nor not deserving of any praise. It is still a great-looking building architecturally that has made itself and the museum an international landmark that draws thousands (millions?) of people to it - TV and film crews have even used it as a set.

Look at Frank Lloyd Wright's Guggenheim. It's a famous, striking building that has made MOMA famous, and yet it apparently wasn't very well designed for displaying art pieces and has been criticized for failing to perform perfectly. To say it deserves no praise and is a failure is harsh considering you're main judgement is on whether it functions 100%, and then whether the building is pleasing to your eyes.

If we're so caught up on function - which there used to be a big architectural movement in the '50s, '60s - we'll end up with dull square or cuboid buildings, because at least with those we know they'll function well. But when talking about architectural innovation, sometimes it's a good idea to sacrifice something to make a provocative piece.

Edit: Was thinking of the Guggenheim in NYC.

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by TOexpat

Funny stuff Fish. I don't have the patience to spell out my thoughts like you, but pretty bang on.

I have lived for over a decade in the Market and there is no where else in Ottawa I would rather live. It is decent, some great points, but lots of area for improvement. The refugee row is apt. So annoying that if you work past six (I know crazy to all the 7-3ers) you walk past this desolate space in the centre of your city and then have to go past all the skids to the metro. What closes at 6 anymore? This is especially unfortunate as what is supposed to be the centre of the market - the square - is actually the worst part. A few good shops, but all the little kiosks suck. And yes, please close this off to traffic. So much nicer having pedestrian space.

Any case, the Market is ok - all that Ottawa can offer- but so much room for simple improvements.

By Fish, do you mean me? I... I kind of like that nickname.

For sure, there could be some simple improvements that would drastically change the Market. Maybe I should say it isn't terrible, but for me what I see is an important part of the city that has so much potential and could be deserving of the highest ratings in the world if only we got serious about what's there now and actively work to change it, but instead we're letting it be grungy and uninviting.

[McC]

A designer who can't make something useful beautiful has failed. A designer who has made something beautiful that isn't useful has failed. Artists do not have to worry about their creations as use objects because their creations are not use objects. Architects are not artists, their works need to succeed first and foremost as spaces for their intended propose, and then (and only then), be beautiful and energy efficient, and inspiring etc... if architects want to be artists first, they need to switch professions and become sculptors.

[bikegypsy]

[QUOTE=ars;6516578]

Originally Posted by EdFromOttawa

I agree with this. The downtowns of both Quebec City and Montreal are leagues ahead of Ottawa. Maybe if Sparks street was something worth visiting, we might be in a better position, but, alas, it's not

Montreal definitively but Quebec city barely has a downtown... During the low tourist months, it's hard to feel that you are in the center of a city it is so quiet. Nicer yes, as in it is much older and has more history. Ottawa has much more of a real downtown. But when it comes to the old city, Quebec obviously and easily eclipses the market.

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by McC

A designer who can't make something useful beautiful has failed. A designer who has made something beautiful that isn't useful has failed. Artists do not have to worry about their creations as use objects because their creations are not use objects. Architects are not artists, their works need to succeed first and foremost as spaces for their intended propose, and then (and only then), be beautiful and energy efficient, and inspiring etc... if architects want to be artists first, they need to switch professions and become sculptors.

That's not true, at all. But give examples of buildings that are useful and beautiful. To be useful, you'll sacrifice beauty; to be beautiful you'll sacrifice usefulness. But I don't agree what what you say whatsoever.