Winnipeg | Osborne Village & Fort Rouge

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It's interesting how different our experiences are. I never felt like Corydon was a snobby area... it doesn't give off much of what I'd consider an "upscale" vibe so much as it is simply normal, mid-range stuff. There aren't really any high-end fine dining restaurants or designer boutiques on that strip, just some mid-range shops, eateries and that sort of thing. It's very Winnipeggy in that regard.

As for gangs/violence, I never really got that vibe at all... I mean, if you look hard you can notice a certain subtle presence, but unless you go looking for trouble it's unlikely that you'll find it.

I've never been a Corydon regular in the every-weekend sense, but I enjoyed spending time around there from time to time when I was younger, and even now I'll go with my family in the early evening for dinner on a patio(Sushi Ya is kid friendly), followed by a stroll down the street, gelati and visit to the playground. Perfect.

I think Corydon could be better as a destination (mainly by making it a more continuous strip from Pembina to Stafford), but even in its current form it's still pretty good. It's arguably the best pedestrian strip of its kind in Winnipeg... every competitor is lacking in some way.

Corydon is essentially seasonal; It needs rents and values that account for that. The idea of Corydon has always loomed larger than its own reality. With the exception of a few long-standing places, there's been significant turnover of ownership, if not concept, nearly everywhere else on the strip. It's difficult to run a business when you're nearly empty for 5 or 6 months of the year.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Corydon is essentially seasonal; It needs rents and values that account for that. The idea of Corydon has always loomed larger than its own reality. With the exception of a few long-standing places, there's been significant turnover of ownership, if not concept, nearly everywhere else on the strip. It's difficult to run a business when you're nearly empty for 5 or 6 months of the year.

Or you just actually open a business that merits people going all year round. When Bar I's patio is closed, they have bar nights that are busy in winter. Mano a Mano/Teo's actually has pretty good food so they do well. Burgers always sell. Niko's is good food, at a good price, and quick. The places that have been there for a while do well because they're actually worth going to. Half the problem of the last 5-10 years is that there were 15 sushi places and 3 of them were actually good. What proves this is that those good ones are the ones still standing — Kenko, Hanabi, Sushi Ya.

Even for shops — I heard rumours that Normandy is closing, which doesn't surprise me, they barely had any stock and it was absurdly overpriced. So overpriced in fact that if you ever asked them how much something was on Instagram they would say "we DM'd you the price" because they were so afraid of saying it in public.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Or you just actually open a business that merits people going all year round. When Bar I's patio is closed, they have bar nights that are busy in winter. Mano a Mano/Teo's actually has pretty good food so they do well. Burgers always sell. Niko's is good food, at a good price, and quick. The places that have been there for a while do well because they're actually worth going to. Half the problem of the last 5-10 years is that there were 15 sushi places and 3 of them were actually good. What proves this is that those good ones are the ones still standing — Kenko, Hanabi, Sushi Ya.

Even for shops — I heard rumours that Normandy is closing, which doesn't surprise me, they barely had any stock and it was absurdly overpriced. So overpriced in fact that if you ever asked them how much something was on Instagram they would say "we DM'd you the price" because they were so afraid of saying it in public.

Sure, but people have to want to come. You can't really sustain an area on a couple small restaurants. Those sushi places were able to move in because nobody else wanted to. They're not really the problem; they're more indicative of it.

People have to remember that not everywhere can deliver quality all the time because most people aren't interested in paying for it. Quality costs money. In a mostly middle-class city of ~730k people there are only ever going to be a finite number of places that can deliver consistent quality while still being sustainable. It's always talked about that the commercial community needs to create 'destinations'. Except that very small segments of the population are looking for 'destinations'; most are looking for convenience and value. Clustering 'destinations' is a sure-fire way for nearly all of the those 'destinations' to fail in a city as small and middle class as ours is. And if you look at any of our trendy areas, they generally have one, maybe two real 'destinations' while the rest of the area struggles with turnover.

[The Unknown Poster]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It's interesting how different our experiences are. I never felt like Corydon was a snobby area... it doesn't give off much of what I'd consider an "upscale" vibe so much as it is simply normal, mid-range stuff. There aren't really any high-end fine dining restaurants or designer boutiques on that strip, just some mid-range shops, eateries and that sort of thing. It's very Winnipeggy in that regard.

As for gangs/violence, I never really got that vibe at all... I mean, if you look hard you can notice a certain subtle presence, but unless you go looking for trouble it's unlikely that you'll find it.

I've never been a Corydon regular in the every-weekend sense, but I enjoyed spending time around there from time to time when I was younger, and even now I'll go with my family in the early evening for dinner on a patio(Sushi Ya is kid friendly), followed by a stroll down the street, gelati and visit to the playground. Perfect.

I think Corydon could be better as a destination (mainly by making it a more continuous strip from Pembina to Stafford), but even in its current form it's still pretty good. It's arguably the best pedestrian strip of its kind in Winnipeg... every competitor is lacking in some way.

It was very much an organized gang area for awhile, a couple of shootings and brawls too. There was some separation down racial lines too. Like I said, I wasnt a regular, but the handful of times I was there, I wasnt left with a warm feeling but I was also attacked at Pier 7 of all places by 20 guys who remembered us from a couple of years earlier. I guess if you've never had an issue you might not have an issue. My circle of friends generally avoided it through.

[esquire]

^ So is the seasonal nature of Corydon the reason that the Exchange is growing while Corydon has been a bit stagnant? The Exchange doesn't get the peaks and swells that Corydon gets on summer weekends, but there is a steadier year-round presence there.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ So is the seasonal nature of Corydon the reason that the Exchange is growing while Corydon has been a bit stagnant? The Exchange doesn't get the peaks and swells that Corydon gets on summer weekends, but there is a steadier year-round presence there.

Who knows, really. The Exchange has come and gone as a popular destination for most of its second life so I wouldn't be considering anything a structural shift until it's managed to sustain itself for more than a few years at a time.

But there area a couple differences between Corydon and the Exchange:

1) There's an abundance of commercial space in the Exchange making all of it cheap. This has a lot to do with why these stores are sustainable at the moment. They'll have to stay cheap to address the seasonal nature of Winnipeg or get very good at moving items online. Corydon is only a couple blocks of one street.

2) The West Exchange - where most of the renaissance is occurring - is almost entirely devoid of residents. The East Exchange is more or less dead because of the residents. Commercial development and residents don't mix. The one case in the West Exchange where a bar tried to extend a patio was immediately shot down by the residents and any success in gentrifying the community will kill all future commercial development in the way people have grown to enjoy it. This is Corydon in a nutshell but the Exchange is a decade or so behind at the moment. When slumlords owned illegal triplexes up and down McMillan and Jessie they didn't care what happened and their renters had no say. But when people started buying those houses to live in, that was the end of it.

One thing they both have in common is that, like Corydon, 'Downtown' is trendy at the moment and areas move with the times. That goes for pretty much everywhere. 10-15 years ago downtown wasn't fashionable because the trends favoured other aesthetics. Von Dutch trucker hats and $400 7even jeans did well in places like Bar Italia because Corydon represented an inner city suburbia. Today the trends are towards things that are better represented by 'character'-driven, dirty, downtown environments, but that will change too. It's sort of notable that eChildren is one of the only stores in the Exchange that never turns over. The rest will go out with their clientele. There was once a decent retail presence on Corydon too.

There's sort of an irony in the whole thing. These stores have to cluster in order to attract the suburban shopper who can park their car and walk. But clustering in an area means that rents go up, available parking goes down, and now you have suburban clients who think twice about driving downtown to do any shopping. At the same time, you end up with residents who fall in love with the area when they're younger, move into it, then mature and want all the disruption to go away. We really saw Corydon go through a full life cycle between the early 90's and the mid 00's. We're starting to see some of it with Osborne Village. And we'll see the same with the Exchange. Neighbourhoods have interesting life cycles. I'm curious to see what happens with Sherbrook.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

The West Exchange - where most of the renaissance is occurring - is almost entirely devoid of residents. The East Exchange is more or less dead because of the residents. Commercial development and residents don't mix. The one case in the West Exchange where a bar tried to extend a patio was immediately shot down by the residents and any success in gentrifying the community will kill all future commercial development in the way people have grown to enjoy it. This is Corydon in a nutshell but the Exchange is a decade or so behind at the moment. When slumlords owned illegal triplexes up and down McMillan and Jessie they didn't care what happened and their renters had no say. But when people started buying those houses to live in, that was the end of it.

This isn't completely true -- West exchange has residence interdispersed in the area... Above Shwarma Khan/Tiny Feast, above the Peasant Cookery, behind King's Head, the hemisphere building, penthouse... I wouldn't say it's anything what the East Exchange is getting, but it is developing on its own.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by steveosnyder

This isn't completely true -- West exchange has residence interdispersed in the area... Above Shwarma Khan/Tiny Feast, above the Peasant Cookery, behind King's Head, the hemisphere building, penthouse... I wouldn't say it's anything what the East Exchange is getting, but it is developing on its own.

The residents in the Penthouse are renters. But the residents in the Peasant Cookery building are the ones I was referring to. In all, there are few. Especially few who own and they're who matter in a discussion like this. Renters tend to stay quiet on these issues because they can very easily move.

[biguc]

Corydon is a fine neighborhood street and I'm not sure we should expect anything more of it. It had its day in the '90s as the city's go-to street when it was the furthest point north that didn't terrify suburbanites. Nowadays it's OK if you don't mind hanging out with Kelvin coke heads--the source of some of the shadiness at Bar-I and Spin you guys have been talking about. Corydon actually has a hilariously similar dynamic to lots of suburban areas in that its bars are full of losers who went to the local high school and never moved out of their parents' basements. Whether it's the Nor-Villa in North K or the Thirsty Lion in Charleswood, their patrons are primarily cradle to grave shit-heels who can't be fucked to get on with their lives. The same story is true of Bar I.


In any case, the Corydon neighborhood is doing a fine job of incrementally increasing density, which will eventually feed into greater demand for services. It already has a strong base of services so it won't be stuck in a high-population, low-service trap like Bro-Ass is trying to dig its way out of. As far as neighborhood streets go, it's actually pretty terrible when it comes to basic amenities. It could really use another grocery store and a liquor store. I'm sure over the next 20 years we'll see it fill in towards Pembina and the RT line and we won't even think about it any more.

Originally Posted by Simplicity

One thing they both have in common is that, like Corydon, 'Downtown' is trendy at the moment and areas move with the times. That goes for pretty much everywhere. 10-15 years ago downtown wasn't fashionable because the trends favoured other aesthetics. Von Dutch trucker hats and $400 7even jeans did well in places like Bar Italia because Corydon represented an inner city suburbia. Today the trends are towards things that are better represented by 'character'-driven, dirty, downtown environments, but that will change too. It's sort of notable that eChildren is one of the only stores in the Exchange that never turns over. The rest will go out with their clientele. There was once a decent retail presence on Corydon too.

This is a hilarious commentary. I took a rare trip to Corydon a few weeks back for dinner. I couldn't get over the people. It wasn't like they were from Fargo and still wearing Von Dutch hats and jeans with fleur-de-lis stitched on the ass pockets, but they were the people who dressed like that ten years ago. They all had their Hitler Youth hair cuts and cuffed selve-edge denim like good trendy-boys, but they were just too damn neat about it. Their parts were too clean and their cuffs too ironed. I like to think that them all being 35 had nothing to do with it but the effect was to make them look like jerkoffs.

My point is that Corydon has picked up the artifice of today's style and the people stuck in that scene try to look the part but they, like Corydon itself, are missing a crucial element. You suggest it's the gritty authenticity that's become trendy today and I think you're right. But remember how graffiti was the scourge of Corydon ten years ago? The defining aesthetic of the last decade was definitely more flashy and douchey than today's, but to the suburban hip-hop kids who tagged up Corydon storefronts, that neighborhood was authentic.

The obvious irony here is that what they were doing was incredibly inauthentic and was, in fact, fake as fuck. But as hip-hop--and greater douche culture--has fallen by the wayside and hipsterdom has risen to the mainstream and crashed to irrelevance they've both proven to be as much artificial chaff as all the undercuts on Corydon.

This is all just the greater march of gentrification and in Winnipeg it follows this city's clear economic geography: North is poor, south is rich. For most of my adolescence the Assiniboine River seemed like an impassible frontier with civilization to the south and the Great Sioux Nation to the north. Of course, it was an easy idea to disabuse myself of and thousands of others have managed to as well. The push north is on and it's manifest destiny for all us south-end bitches until we hit the CPR line.

We aren't witnessing a change in taste from smooth to rough as much as we're witnessing a constant search for novelty. Just like Americans used up the land in the east and moved west, then used up the cities in the east and moved west more, Winnipeggers are using up the authenticity of their neighborhoods and moving north. Remember when Osborne Village was the bohemian heart of the city? Nowadays, it's the "EMS workers living in condos" heart of the city. What authenticity it had left got kicked out of Collective Cabaret by American Apparel. Authenticity moved to West Broadway ten years ago and now it's moved north again. The only artists I know who still live south of Portage have lackeys expert in writing grant applications.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by biguc

Corydon is a fine neighborhood street and I'm not sure we should expect anything more of it. It had its day in the '90s as the city's go-to street when it was the furthest point north that didn't terrify suburbanites. Nowadays it's OK if you don't mind hanging out with Kelvin coke heads--the source of some of the shadiness at Bar-I and Spin you guys have been talking about. Corydon actually has a hilariously similar dynamic to lots of suburban areas in that its bars are full of losers who went to the local high school and never moved out of their parents' basements. Whether it's the Nor-Villa in North K or the Thirsty Lion in Charleswood, their patrons are primarily cradle to grave shit-heels who can't be fucked to get on with their lives. The same story is true of Bar I.


In any case, the Corydon neighborhood is doing a fine job of incrementally increasing density, which will eventually feed into greater demand for services. It already has a strong base of services so it won't be stuck in a high-population, low-service trap like Bro-Ass is trying to dig its way out of. As far as neighborhood streets go, it's actually pretty terrible when it comes to basic amenities. It could really use another grocery store and a liquor store. I'm sure over the next 20 years we'll see it fill in towards Pembina and the RT line and we won't even think about it any more.





This is a hilarious commentary. I took a rare trip to Corydon a few weeks back for dinner. I couldn't get over the people. It wasn't like they were from Fargo and still wearing Von Dutch hats and jeans with fleur-de-lis stitched on the ass pockets, but they were the people who dressed like that ten years ago. They all had their Hitler Youth hair cuts and cuffed selve-edge denim like good trendy-boys, but they were just too damn neat about it. Their parts were too clean and their cuffs too ironed. I like to think that them all being 35 had nothing to do with it but the effect was to make them look like jerkoffs.

My point is that Corydon has picked up the artifice of today's style and the people stuck in that scene try to look the part but they, like Corydon itself, are missing a crucial element. You suggest it's the gritty authenticity that's become trendy today and I think you're right. But remember how graffiti was the scourge of Corydon ten years ago? The defining aesthetic of the last decade was definitely more flashy and douchey than today's, but to the suburban hip-hop kids who tagged up Corydon storefronts, that neighborhood was authentic.

The obvious irony here is that what they were doing was incredibly inauthentic and was, in fact, fake as fuck. But as hip-hop--and greater douche culture--has fallen by the wayside and hipsterdom has risen to the mainstream and crashed to irrelevance they've both proven to be as much artificial chaff as all the undercuts on Corydon.

This is all just the greater march of gentrification and in Winnipeg it follows this city's clear economic geography: North is poor, south is rich. For most of my adolescence the Assiniboine River seemed like an impassible frontier with civilization to the south and the Great Sioux Nation to the north. Of course, it was an easy idea to disabuse myself of and thousands of others have managed to as well. The push north is on and it's manifest destiny for all us south-end bitches until we hit the CPR line.

We aren't witnessing a change in taste from smooth to rough as much as we're witnessing a constant search for novelty. Just like Americans used up the land in the east and moved west, then used up the cities in the east and moved west more, Winnipeggers are using up the authenticity of their neighborhoods and moving north. Remember when Osborne Village was the bohemian heart of the city? Nowadays, it's the "EMS workers living in condos" heart of the city. What authenticity it had left got kicked out of Collective Cabaret by American Apparel. Authenticity moved to West Broadway ten years ago and now it's moved north again. The only artists I know who still live south of Portage have lackeys expert in writing grant applications.

Well put. That was a good read.

I think we're saying similar things, though. Neighbourhoods have their day in the sun; they move with the trends. Downtown is where it's at for the moment, but that won't last either. A lot of this is demographic too. We're an aging community by most standards. I'm not so dire on suburban living because most of who we consider the youth of today will statistically end up living there and there isn't much youth coming up behind. If it takes the youth to keep these areas thriving, there will be less and less of it to do so...

[The Unknown Poster]

its interesting you mention that about neighbourhoods. I grew up in South Winnipeg and worked bars around town for years. We were recently talking about the decline of the Pembina strip from a few years back when it had a lot of suburban "nightclubs" for the kiddies that were fairly busy. No more Monty's, no more Palladium and "Coyotes" changes names every six months because no one goes there.

How many thousands of kids on campus...where do they all go now? used to be lined up around the building at all these bars. Now they are dead.

[windypeg]

There are some good year-round bars and restaurants on Corydon, but it doesn't change the fact that there are only bars and restaurants. The exchange has such a healthy mix of uses with office, retail, food & bars, galleries, theatres, red river college etc that keep people there at all times. Corydon is still just a place people from the suburbs come in the summer when they want to drink on a patio. Hopefully that changes.

[buzzg]

Moral of the story is Rapid Transit for all.

[esquire]

For what it's worth I'd wouldn't want Corydon to become something radically different than what it is now... Whyte Ave in Edmonton always had a bit of a mall like feel to me, basically an overbuilt playground for suburbanites. I think the ideal is to have a multitude of smaller, Corydon-like strips aimed mostly at people in the local area. Corydon is the model, but others are getting there including Sherbrook, South Osborne and Provencher.

[esquire]

^ I have to admit I avoided Dirty Laundry/SPIN/whatever else it has been called due to a shady reputation (although nothing ever happened to me there during the times where I did drop in). My WPS buddies won't go near Bar I either. So I'm vaguely aware of the issues but being a civilian who is not involved in the world of cops and robbers, I can't say that I really notice those things. I suspect that most of the shenanigans go on well after I have gone home for the evening... I haven't been out on Corydon past midnight since I don't remember when.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I have to admit I avoided Dirty Laundry/SPIN/whatever else it has been called due to a shady reputation (although nothing ever happened to me there during the times where I did drop in). My WPS buddies won't go near Bar I either. So I'm vaguely aware of the issues but being a civilian who is not involved in the world of cops and robbers, I can't say that I really notice those things. I suspect that most of the shenanigans go on well after I have gone home for the evening... I haven't been out on Corydon past midnight since I don't remember when.

I ended up at Saffron's one late-winter evening this year for a birthday. Probably sometime in April. Anyway, I hailed a cab around midnight or so and was struck by how completely dead the street was and it wasn't a particularly cold evening at all. I asked the cabbie on the way home how his evening was going and he went on to say that he drives nearly every night and has for years. He said his business on Corydon in the winter is now nearly non-existent. I get the feeling that a lot of people who once considered Corydon their stomping grounds have simply aged out.

[buzzg]

I have very little sympathy for people who move into urban areas like Corydon or especially the Exchange, and then complain about noise and people being out on the street and bars. Sorry, but no one forced you to move there, and it's not like that was all you could afford... you paid EXTRA to live there (compared to suburbs).

Especially that whole R:ED thing with Union Sound Hall... Buddy, that place has been a night club on and off for 30 years, and the argument it was "supposed to be live music only" is stupid because often bands with drums are much louder than a DJ. It's clear they didn't want "DJ people" there, which is funny because it's those young people that often spend the most money on going out in that area.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I have very little sympathy for people who move into urban areas like Corydon or especially the Exchange, and then complain about noise and people being out on the street and bars. Sorry, but no one forced you to move there, and it's not like that was all you could afford... you paid EXTRA to live there (compared to suburbs).

Especially that whole R:ED thing with Union Sound Hall... Buddy, that place has been a night club on and off for 30 years, and the argument it was "supposed to be live music only" is stupid because often bands with drums are much louder than a DJ. It's clear they didn't want "DJ people" there, which is funny because it's those young people that often spend the most money on going out in that area.

In most of the areas these people actually paid well below what the existing market is. This is why I say these things go in waves. At the time of their purchase their primary motive was being close to the party. Now it's protecting their equity. Everybody hates people in their 20's except people in their 20's.

[buzzg]

Most bars would laugh at you if you came in and applied for a job and said "I got my bartending licence" as if that's actually a real thing. You learned how to make drinks that 90% of people don't know about or forgot existed.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Most bars would laugh at you if you came in and applied for a job and said "I got my bartending licence" as if that's actually a real thing. You learned how to make drinks that 90% of people don't know about or forgot existed.

+1... People who take those courses are idiots if they think they will get a bartending position at any of the busy bars. I could see it working for something like a lounge but no way would a bar hire someone just because they know how to mix a tom collins.

As for Unknown Poster -- Who from the Lid came to Coyotes? I was there for a while, around 2 and a half years, and I don't remember people coming over... And we never used guns, always bottles on the rail.