Street Food

[theKB]

Originally Posted by jlousa

That said I can't beleive people are stating the rest of the food scene in Vancouver in Bleh. Keep away from the chains and you should fair pretty well in this city.

I avoid the chains like the plague unless it is unavoidable, but I also think that stuff that is not bad is way over priced for what you actually are getting and most definitely there are a few gems out there.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Have you been elsewhere in North American for sushi? It's hard to find, more expensive, and lower quality.

I find the overall quality at most of the sushi joints in town to be average at best, nothing outstanding. There are a few good spots. I think octopus garden is not bad. I have never been to Tojo and don't think I will ever go there. Tojo charges DOUBLE or more what Morimoto charges for rolls in NYC, i'm sorry that is ridiculous. Even sushi yasuda in NYC is considerably cheaper, or Soto which has TWO MICHELIN STARS!!!!. In North America I found the Sushi in SFO, Chicago and New York to be superior, more expensive than most places here for good quality but nothing more than an evening at cactus or earls. Vancouver doesn't have a middle ground really in this department. You have all the little places (which there are a few that aren't bad and primarily those are the ones owned by people of Japanese origin) that are pretty cheap and then you have Tojo which is a ripoff IMO. We have lots of quantity when it comes to sushi and very little quality.

[GMasterAres]

Still trying to find great Sushi places around all of Metro Vancouver that doesn't break the bank. Having "the best" seems to be a luxury in Vancouver and unfortunately taste has been scientifically proven to be influenced by other factors such as price and pure opinion. So places like Tojo may have great sushi but for most people that aren't celebrities or wealthy, the price does make it seem to taste average at best. Just like I've gone to Hy's in Whistler with friends on a budget and they argue the steak is worst than Moxies or the Keg and I go "uh... seriously?" but they scoff at the price.

For me though with Sushi, I have a hard time paying a huge amount because at the end of the day the ingredients are not that expensive for anything made. My go tos mainly because of where I live are in Surrey, Ladner, and sometimes when I venture into Vancouver I will hit up Aoki (if there are tables), Toshi (if no line up), or Ikura in Marpole.

Now Pho, that's another story. Have yet to find a place as good as Ha Long Bay on Pender but please let me know if you've found a place on par or better. Everywhere else has either dried or flash frozen dark chicken which is completely lazy.

[GMasterAres]

Sorry for the topic of street food, Portland has good prices for their street food but it's because there are about a billion carts it seems. As soon as you try to pick and choose who gets licenses and you make it a small exclusive club, you will get high prices. It's the American way unfortunately though us Canadian's hate to admit it, competition lowers prices.

Reduces competition and increased demand = GOUGING. So Vancouver will see extremely high street food prices until the day they have 50-100 carts in downtown.

[theKB]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Sorry for the topic of street food, Portland has good prices for their street food but it's because there are about a billion carts it seems. As soon as you try to pick and choose who gets licenses and you make it a small exclusive club, you will get high prices. It's the American way unfortunately though us Canadian's hate to admit it, competition lowers prices.

Reduces competition and increased demand = GOUGING. So Vancouver will see extremely high street food prices until the day they have 50-100 carts in downtown.

Vancouver's approach to this has certainly not helped with the pricing.

Also I wonder who is the loudest opposition to the food carts. I can see all the boring restaurants that are nothing special complaining about losing their lunch rush. Additionally I can't see the restaurants that are good at what they do having any effect on their business by these food trucks.

It's just the Vancouver way to re-invent the wheel every time something needs to be done.

[theKB]

Well the city is freezing licensing because too many people are profiteering off of their licenses by renting them out...

After being flooded with complaints from operators, the City of Vancouver plans to freeze food cart permits.

City staff are looking for a way to stop those who hold existing permits from renting out their spaces at exorbitant rates.

A co-owner of Big Dogs Street Hots said the company is struggling to survive because it rents its spots from other people who were originally awarded the permits.

Leaseholders can ask up to $10,000 per year, nearly 10 times the actual cost for a permit from the city.

City spokesperson Karyn Magnusson says that has to stop.

... continued

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...uver-1.2486648

The city makes it overly complicated for anyone to get a license in the first place, has no restrictions in place once a license is issued in terms of who can use it and now is experiencing people profiteering on said licenses.

Time to open it up and issue licenses to anyone that wants one and let the market decide. Maybe it would allow for some actual GOOD options to start showing up instead of bland overpriced crap that MOST trucks are offering now (8 bucks for a kids size bowl of mac and cheese that would have tasted better if it came from a box that said Kraft... two pieces of toasted bread with a piece of cheap cheese in between it with a 1/8th of a bag of no name chips for 7 bucks, yeah these are great options!)

Let the market decide, those who fail will undoubtedly fail badly and those that are amazing will succeed. The city needs to stop trying to social engineer everything. Many of the options at the richmond night market blow almost all the truck/stand options around vancouver out of the water!

[spm2013]

Whoever runs the food truck program in Vancouver should be fired. That would be the first step.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by theKB

Time to open it up and issue licenses to anyone that wants one and let the market decide. Maybe it would allow for some actual GOOD options to start showing up instead of bland overpriced crap that MOST trucks are offering now (8 bucks for a kids size bowl of mac and cheese that would have tasted better if it came from a box that said Kraft... two pieces of toasted bread with a piece of cheap cheese in between it with a 1/8th of a bag of no name chips for 7 bucks, yeah these are great options!)

Let the market decide, those who fail will undoubtedly fail badly and those that are amazing will succeed. The city needs to stop trying to social engineer everything. Many of the options at the richmond night market blow almost all the truck/stand options around vancouver out of the water!

Absolutely.

Why this wasn't the plan in the first place is mind-boggling. I just don't get it. That lottery system was unbelievably ill-conceived, and flies in the face of the free market. It's like something the Chinese government would have done in the early 80s.

[djh]

Originally Posted by giallo

Absolutely.

Why this wasn't the plan in the first place is mind-boggling. I just don't get it. That lottery system was unbelievably ill-conceived, and flies in the face of the free market. It's like something the Chinese government would have done in the early 80s.

Agreed with most of the above posts - yes the city mismanaged this and made it too complicated, yes the manager should be changed, yes open it up to the market...

BUT

Having a 100% free market and letting the market decide, with 0% city involvement is a recipe for serious serious disaster. Food is something that can be deadly. You want any old joe with no sanitary standards serving you food? How about unrefrigerated meat because they don't want to waste money on refrigeration? Or unethically-sourced, mercury-filled seafood? Do we wait until somebody dies from botulism or mercury poisoning to shut down these guys?
What about allowing zero city regulation, so tons of super-cheap carts flood the main streets and cause our great restaurants to go bankrupt? Well the market decided, but it didn't make the city a better place.

Regulations are necessary. Mostly because if people have complete free-will they tend to think about their short-term personal good, not the long-term greater good. We just need to ensure the city doesn't over-regulate.

[giallo]

I agree completely. I should have specified that there absolutely needs to be strict standards as far as what types of food can be sold (certain veggies and animals are no-nos in Canada), where the food is bought and how the food is stored/prepared. Besides that though, let the market decide.

[jlousa]

I think the city is copying the taxi license situation which is a major problem. The city should've retained ownership of the licenses and leased them out on a yearly basis to the operators, they would be non transferable. Follow the rules and you retain the right to first refusal upon renewing. The city could then roll out as many licenses as they want and if things go sour then start pruning them too.

[a very long weekend]

a lot of this debate seems to me to be extremely myopic. i'm about to head back to asia for a few months and i can't wait just to be back. like, i've been living in sf for the past several years, and before that it was montreal. having a fairly good acquaintanceship with non-north america (also went to school in france for a while), it's sort of mind-boggling to me that we have the insane food rules that we do. like, obviously, we need standards and inspectors and that, but like it seems pretty straight-forward that street food doesn't need to be so insanely regulated like it is in canada. montreal too, it's just sort of nuts.

dleung, where are you? like, the entire north false creek area, imo, ought to be a lan kwai fong (hk) or golden gai (tk) area. alleys and shops and restos, mid-rise but dense. you want to render it?

[officedweller]

I could see restricting locations so the sidewalks aren't bonbarded with food carts...

but what the City has failed to realize is that by restricting supply, you create demand and value - so there'll be a market.
Gee - sounds like zoning and real estate prices...

As JLousa mentioned - why aren't the licences non-transferrable??
Or, as with any other sub-licensing or sub-leasing sitaution - require the express written consent of the grantor (i.e. the City) to the proposed sub-licence (including the fees)?

It's not rocket science.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

a lot of this debate seems to me to be extremely myopic. i'm about to head back to asia for a few months and i can't wait just to be back.

I just got back from Jakarta, and while the street food scene there would never fly in Vancouver (too lightly regulated), it's a food mecca. Man, I had so much fun eating all the different pandang dishes (satay, rendang, coconut curry hard-boiled eggs etc.). Again, this sort of laissez-faire attitude is an impossibility in Vancouver, but there's got to be a happy medium - especially since Vancouver is this self-proclaimed (ok, maybe not, but we sure like to boast about it) food city. Oh, and in case you're wondering, I ate at every food stall in JKT that looked good, and not once did I have any stomach or health issues.

HK and Taiwan are two good examples of a developed city/country that has a modern health code for street food. The food is cheap and delicious, therefore it thrives.

[Millennium2002]

Hmm.

I'd go for almost-unlimited, non-transferable, annually-renewable licenses... with the caveat that the number of licenses in a given area does not exceed some combination of median FSR value and existing restaurant spaces, and that the cost of such licenses is 60% of the median average of the cost of a local restaurant's rent.

The outcome of this formula should look like this:

- low FSR, low restaurant spaces: more food carts allowed to a sustainable maximum
- low FSR, high number of restaurants: food carts curtailed to a minimum, for fair competition reasons vs local establishments
- high FSR, low restaurant spaces: food carts can proliferate, but still to a sustainable maximum
- high FSR, high restaurant spaces: more food carts are allowed, but they should still be less than the number of restaurants for fairness

Sounds complicated, but I'm trying to do a few things at once here:
- encourage food carts to set up shop in areas that are under-served by food carts and could benefit from their presence
- give breathing room for traditional restaurants, especially in areas where competition for customers is high (low-density areas in particular)
- use building density as a gauge into how many customers can be expected, and therefore how many establishments can properly survive
- for the pricing formula, I'm recognizing the fact that food carts don't have table space or large kitchens, but balancing it with the survivability of local establishments.

Thoughts?

[officedweller]

Not sure about the first example -
In a low density area (few customers) with few restaurants (low demand), adding lots of food carts would probably drive the restaurants out of business (and the food carts may not be viable either).

[GeeCee]

If they were to allow for an unlimited amount of food carts, where would they all go at lunch time? There are only so many spots where they can park and have a chance at being profitable. There's a reason why they have a specific number of licenses available.

The subletting of the licenses is the free market in action - it causes chaos and hurts the majority while benefiting the very few who exploit it to make a profit. The answer here is to not remove rules, but to replace ineffective and harmful restrictions with those that benefit the majority. In this case, I think making the licenses nontransferable as jlousa suggested should suffice.

[Spork]

Question: Why is it necessary to preserve the business of restaurants?

Why does it matter if the food carts are profitable? Adjust the business, reissue the license, whatever.

I've also experienced the glory of Asian food cart culture, and can't help but wish for unlimited licenses, and hundreds of allowable locations around the city. Let the market decide. If we end up with hundreds of hot dog vendors (which I doubt), so be it - that's what people want.

[officedweller]

The thinking is that restaurants provide more tax revenue and contribute more to the economic stability of the City. They are less likely to be transitory, pop-up or "fly by night" operations that may not contribute to the City over the longer term.

i.e. some restaurants with millions of dollars in leasehold improvements may sign 20+ year leases.

That's better than have a revolving door of tenants every few years.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by officedweller

The thinking is that restaurants provide more tax revenue and contribute more to the economic stability of the City. They are less likely to be transitory, pop-up or "fly by night" operations that may not contribute to the City over the longer term.

i.e. some restaurants with millions of dollars in leasehold improvements may sign 20+ year leases.

That's better than have a revolving door of tenants every few years.

And this is pretty much it. It all comes down to dollars and cents.

The thing is, an abundance of food carts and restaurants can happily coexist. In Taiwan, street food is more of a means to an end - it's what you eat between meals. Most carts sell one, maybe two items, and that's it. If you want a more complete meal with the possibility of ordering an appetizer, main, dessert and drink, you go to a sit down restaurant. This has been the norm in thousands of cities around the world for a long time.

[officedweller]

I think that the food trucks are also viewed as "undercutting" the restaurants (at least of the lunch crowd, as they sell the same things that people would go to restaurants for (i.e. burgers and sandwiches), even though the food truck items can be about $10 (i.e food fair pricing).

In Asia, are the prices more comparable between bricks and mortar restaurants and food carts (or do they differentiate themselves in the marketplace)? Maybe the City created part of the problem with requirements for "high end" food trucks?

Here's an odd article from the Globe - one of the "big" food trends for 2014 is supposedly to bring up the cost of "ethnic" food to the cost of food at western restaurants (which may wrongly assume that cheap food is poor quality):

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...228061/?page=4