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  #161  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 11:51 AM
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Bus station gone, Greyhound eyes link with LRT, transitway
For the first time in almost 100 years, Ottawa has no inter-city bus station. Worse, there doesn't seem to be a known plan for a replacement.

Kelly Egan, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Mar 29, 2021 • 1 hour ago • 4 minute read


One of the many things that quietly died during the pandemic — without any visible mourning — is Ottawa’s central bus station.

It happened in a hurry. Greyhound suspended Canadian operations in May 2020; it announced in October it would no longer use the Catherine Street depot when service resumed; the site was sold to a developer in March.

Poof. In the nation’s capital, in the space of months, the wheels no more go round and round.

For the first time in almost 100 years — 49 at this location — Ottawa has no inter-city bus station. Worse, there doesn’t seem to be a known plan for a replacement.

Why is no one talking about this? Isn’t a well-located bus station as important as the siting of an airport or train station? Is it not a lifeline for students, tourists, the car-less, the wandering, backpack dreamers?

In its last word on the issue — six months ago — Greyhound said: “As we work through the impact of the pandemic on our business, we will communicate well in advance our new location prior to a startup date.”

OK — that was October, this is now end of March. Is it not plausible bus service could resume at some level this year, as early as this fall? We reached out to Greyhound naturally. Days later, still crickets.

We do know the company has been in discussion with the City of Ottawa about possibly linking with the existing light-rail and bus network. But where and how?

(Buses, we have noticed, take up acres of room. The old station had about a dozen loading bays and the property was an entire city block. It’s not something you “tuck in” beside, say, Tunney’s Pasture.)

The city’s response:

“The City of Ottawa has been approached by Greyhound Lines regarding the possibility of accommodating intercity bus service at one of OC Transpo’s rapid transit stations, and the City has provided information on the operating characteristics of some possible stations,” wrote Pat Scrimgeour, the director of transit customer systems and planning.

“If Greyhound decides to proceed with this, customers would benefit from direct access to the City’s O-Train and Transitway networks, which offer multimodal connections to all parts of the urban area of the city.”

The city wouldn’t specify which stations are in the mix.

“It will be up to Greyhound to make decisions on what works for their business, and then for the City to determine whether Greyhound’s business needs can be accommodated,” Scrimgeour replied.

I mean, inasmuch as bus service is a private endeavour, is there not a sizeable public interest in putting the station in the right place? And shouldn’t the people of Ottawa, through their elected officials, have some input?

In 2010, then-mayor Larry O’Brien was involved in discussions with Greyhound about possibly moving the bus station into or beside the train station on Tremblay Road. In terms of creating a transportation hub, it does make sense as Tremblay now has an LRT stop and nearby Hurdman is on the transitway. So, is this a clue or a trail gone cold?

Ottawa Centre MPP Joel Harden is one of the few politicians to have made any public statements on the issue.

Growing up in Vankleek Hill, he said the Hawkesbury-to-Ottawa bus was a key service for young people in a small town, as was the bus to Queen’s University in Kingston for his undergraduate studies.

(The Catherine station was not only close to the 417, but also about midway between Ottawa’s two largest universities.)

“Losing long-haul passenger buses creates a huge gap for low and modest income commuters,” Harden said in written reply.

“Accessible, affordable long-distance bus service is sorely needed, and I’m open to alternatives, including public alternatives, to ensure commuters have that option.”

In an interview, he mentions the value of Greyhound’s parcel service — key for some small businesses — and the importance of inter-city service for small communities across the Ottawa Valley and Western Quebec.

“It would seem the government is implicitly saying, ‘Just drive your car.’ And that’s not a reality for a significant amount of people in the community.”

Just as Ottawa lost its station, the whole regulatory framework for inter-city busing in Ontario is changing.

It had been governed by the public, but arms-length Ontario Highway Transportation Board, which licensed operators of inter-community busing. But the Ford government is dissolving the board in an effort to deregulate the sector and “improve transportation options.”

So we may end up with many doggies in the race, not just a single hound, grey or otherwise.

Whatever happens, it’s high time for an open discussion about when the bus starts and, importantly, where it stops.

To contact Kelly Egan, please call 613-291-6265 or email [email protected]
Twitter.com/kellyegancolumn

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...lrt-transitway
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  #162  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 12:18 PM
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AFAIK, Ontario Northland still uses Central Station, so the statement, “ For the first time in almost 100 years, Ottawa has no inter-city bus station” isn’t quite accurate.
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  #163  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 12:26 PM
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Seems to me the only options would be somewhere between Hurdman and Blair. Let's explore those options:
  • Hurdman might be the most logical option, near the highway, major transfer between buses and rail, washrooms, a coffee shop and plenty of space. If this is the preferred option, it could explain why the City has not invested in improvements yet;
  • Tremblay is near the highway and links to VIA, but the layout would need to be significantly altered to accomadate the buses. Not to mention they would need to deal with VIA and the NCC as well (with Hurdman, the NCC may only need to give a quick rubber stamp if existing facilities are used). I also think there are better opportunities at this station (TOD);
  • St. Laurent could come with a rebuild of the bus loop, which is in the plans anyway, along with a new entrance and bridge to the Federal land South of the highway;
  • Blair (because Cyrville is not an option) has a lot of the same advantages as Hurdman, but in a tighter area that will have some maneuverability challenges for buses in a few years.
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  #164  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 1:25 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Seems to me the only options would be somewhere between Hurdman and Blair. Let's explore those options:
  • Hurdman might be the most logical option, near the highway, major transfer between buses and rail, washrooms, a coffee shop and plenty of space. If this is the preferred option, it could explain why the City has not invested in improvements yet;
  • Tremblay is near the highway and links to VIA, but the layout would need to be significantly altered to accomadate the buses. Not to mention they would need to deal with VIA and the NCC as well (with Hurdman, the NCC may only need to give a quick rubber stamp if existing facilities are used). I also think there are better opportunities at this station (TOD);
  • St. Laurent could come with a rebuild of the bus loop, which is in the plans anyway, along with a new entrance and bridge to the Federal land South of the highway;
  • Blair (because Cyrville is not an option) has a lot of the same advantages as Hurdman, but in a tighter area that will have some maneuverability challenges for buses in a few years.
I've always been partial to Tremblay, and the transportation hub idea. Something to the east side of the station makes sense, though Via will probably insist on replacing any parking that is lost. But there is really no reason they couldn't connect directly to the train station to make transfers seamless.

Hurdman seems like an awkward in and out from the highway. Maybe it wouldn't actually take more time, but there is something appealing about having a loop in and out like at Tremblay. Also, given that the hope is for a major redevelopment there at some point, any terminal going in now would probably have to be temporary.

I would say that St. Laurent and Blair are both too far east to be ideal. Even though they are on the O-train, something more central is always going to be desirable. And putting the main station beside a suburban mall sends the message that buses aren't a priority for the city.
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  #165  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 1:27 PM
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Having the LRT link would be great, maybe even essential. But having our "central" bus station even further from downtown than it is now would suck. That said, I'm sure that's what will happen because land downtown is so expensive. Hopefully they will still have an option to drop people off at the U of O like they did before.
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  #166  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 1:49 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Seems to me the only options would be somewhere between Hurdman and Blair. Let's explore those options:
  • Hurdman might be the most logical option, near the highway, major transfer between buses and rail, washrooms, a coffee shop and plenty of space. If this is the preferred option, it could explain why the City has not invested in improvements yet;
  • Tremblay is near the highway and links to VIA, but the layout would need to be significantly altered to accomadate the buses. Not to mention they would need to deal with VIA and the NCC as well (with Hurdman, the NCC may only need to give a quick rubber stamp if existing facilities are used). I also think there are better opportunities at this station (TOD);
  • St. Laurent could come with a rebuild of the bus loop, which is in the plans anyway, along with a new entrance and bridge to the Federal land South of the highway;
  • Blair (because Cyrville is not an option) has a lot of the same advantages as Hurdman, but in a tighter area that will have some maneuverability challenges for buses in a few years.
For better or for worse Hurdman also already has an additional platform on the south side of the loop, and a drop off loop for cars.

Super inconvenient and basically no shelter at all, but.......
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  #167  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 2:16 PM
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For better or for worse Hurdman also already has an additional platform on the south side of the loop, and a drop off loop for cars.

Super inconvenient and basically no shelter at all, but.......
The issue with that location is that it is within the fare-paid zone. Any option should have inter-city buses accessible without paying an OC Transpo fare.
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  #168  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 2:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
The issue with that location is that it is within the fare-paid zone. Any option should have inter-city buses accessible without paying an OC Transpo fare.
Wait, the Hurdman bus loop isn't a fare-paid zone. Only the train station is fare-paid, right?
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  #169  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 2:47 PM
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Depends on the size. I don't think Quebec City or Winnipeg has a real intercity bus terminal, and lots of mid-sized cities don't have them. Vancouver just has the train station I think.
What are you talking about? Quebec City has a great integrated train and bus terminal at Gare du Palais. A couple of years ago I was in Rimouski heading back to Ottawa, and since VIA's Ocean runs infrequently, I took an Orléans Express bus to Quebec City. At the terminal I basically got off the bus, walked down a corridor and hopped on a train to Ottawa.
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  #170  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 2:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Seems to me the only options would be somewhere between Hurdman and Blair. Let's explore those options:
  • Hurdman might be the most logical option, near the highway, major transfer between buses and rail, washrooms, a coffee shop and plenty of space. If this is the preferred option, it could explain why the City has not invested in improvements yet;
  • Tremblay is near the highway and links to VIA, but the layout would need to be significantly altered to accomadate the buses. Not to mention they would need to deal with VIA and the NCC as well (with Hurdman, the NCC may only need to give a quick rubber stamp if existing facilities are used). I also think there are better opportunities at this station (TOD);
  • St. Laurent could come with a rebuild of the bus loop, which is in the plans anyway, along with a new entrance and bridge to the Federal land South of the highway;
  • Blair (because Cyrville is not an option) has a lot of the same advantages as Hurdman, but in a tighter area that will have some maneuverability challenges for buses in a few years.
My preference would be to integrate the bus terminal with the train station to allow train/bus transfers. VIA currently sublets the western third of the station to other businesses (I gather it was originally office space for CN and CP employees prior to VIA taking over passenger service), so that could become the bus terminal's concourse area. Doing some quick measurements, Parking lot P1 seems plenty large enough to have the same number of bus bays as Central Station (maybe even a few more), and is wide enough to have the buses turn around.

Another advantage of this approach is it would open up an entrance closer to the O-Train station. Potentially they could dig a tunnel connecting the stations.

The issue of course is that this would eliminate a significant number of parking spaces at the train station. This could be resolved by either building a parking garage over P3 or by backfilling part or all of the centre of the loop (capping the O-train line if backfilling all).

Having said all this, I am not convinced that Greyhound will ever resume domestic service in Canada (they are likely using the pandemic as an excuse to pull out completely and only provide international service). In this post,Urban_Sky provided this link showing their Canadian schedules prior to the pandemic. Looking at it, they had the following service remaining to/from Ottawa (there were other routes that didn't serve Ottawa):
  • Ottawa-Sudbury
  • Ottawa-Toronto (via Peterborough)
  • Ottawa-Toronto (via Belleville)
  • Ottawa-Kingston (via Smiths Falls)
  • Ottawa-Kingston (via Brockville)
  • Ottawa-Montreal (express)
  • Ottawa-Montreal (north shore)
  • Ottawa-Montreal (south shore)
  • Ottawa-Cornwall

I would suspect that the service to Sudbury would be picked up by Ontario Northland (brining their service to 2 busses a day) and most of the rest would be picked up by megabus, since they had previously taken over the Toronto-Montreal service.
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  #171  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 2:56 PM
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My preference would be to integrate the bus terminal with the train station to allow train/bus transfers.
Agree with this and the rest of the post. I don't see why we'd want a bus transfer at Hurdman when we can potentially get intercity bus, VIA, and O-Train in one-stop at Tremblay nextdoor. Hurdman is enough of a mess as is.
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  #172  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 2:56 PM
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The issue with that location is that it is within the fare-paid zone. Any option should have inter-city buses accessible without paying an OC Transpo fare.
That could easily be alleviated by putting QR codes on Greyhound tickets that can be scanned to gain access to the FPZ, not that this makes it a better option in any way.
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  #173  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 3:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
What are you talking about? Quebec City has a great integrated train and bus terminal at Gare du Palais. A couple of years ago I was in Rimouski heading back to Ottawa, and since VIA's Ocean runs infrequently, I took an Orléans Express bus to Quebec City. At the terminal I basically got off the bus, walked down a corridor and hopped on a train to Ottawa.
Oops, my bad. I forgot that there was an actual bus station there. That's exactly what would make sense at Tremblay Rd.
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  #174  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 4:03 PM
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Originally Posted by FutureWickedCity View Post
Having the LRT link would be great, maybe even essential. But having our "central" bus station even further from downtown than it is now would suck. That said, I'm sure that's what will happen because land downtown is so expensive. Hopefully they will still have an option to drop people off at the U of O like they did before.
Having a downtown bus depot is highly unlikely. If there were to be one, the block bounded by Albert, Slater, Lyon and Bay would be near ideal, but there is already a development planned for that location.

Having said that, even with a depot not downtown, there is no reason the buses couldn't stop downtown either before or after stopping at the depot.
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  #175  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 4:09 PM
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Depends on the size. I don't think Quebec City or Winnipeg has a real intercity bus terminal,
Winnipeg has a full intercity bus terminal... located right at the Airport.
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  #176  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 4:18 PM
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I don't think having the bus terminal downtown is all that important. It was to it before on Catherine, but no one would argue that the location was more accessible than any of the other possibilities along the Confederation Line.

Hurdman or Tremblay would be far superior to Catherine. Both present some interesting opportunities. Both would require a significant investment (guesstimate $20-30 million to improve Hurdman bus loop and concourse, or to convert part of the VIA station to a bus depot, and possibly build bus lay-bys and/or a bus loop).
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  #177  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 5:59 PM
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The bus terminal should be at the train station and Tremblay O-Train service.

HOWEVER, how about in the urban wasteland at Terminal Drive, across from Walmart.

FINALLY open the under-track tunnel to pedestrian service, and animate both sides of the tracks (making the tunnel less sketchy) by having the bus station at the south end of the tunnel.

Incorporate the station in the next tower planned for the site, with bus parking and loop around the north side of the tower.
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  #178  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 6:08 PM
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I don't think having the bus terminal downtown is all that important.
As someone who used to take the bus fairly regularly i'd say it's pretty important, actually, in the grand scheme of things. It's far better to be let off a bus in an urban core than being deposited in an industrial park, suburban farscape, or somewhere else with limited transit. The most important part of transit connectivity, especially for intercity buses, is that they connect to other modes of transport easily. Toronto's bus terminal desposits you pretty much smack-dab downtown, a block away from a subway station. Montreal's is similar.

Obviously Tremblay satisfies needs for other transport connections, but to say that bus terminals don't need to be downtown is probably incorrect.
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  #179  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 6:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
As someone who used to take the bus fairly regularly i'd say it's pretty important, actually, in the grand scheme of things. It's far better to be let off a bus in an urban core than being deposited in an industrial park, suburban farscape, or somewhere else with limited transit. The most important part of transit connectivity, especially for intercity buses, is that they connect to other modes of transport easily. Toronto's bus terminal desposits you pretty much smack-dab downtown, a block away from a subway station. Montreal's is similar.

Obviously Tremblay satisfies needs for other transport connections, but to say that bus terminals don't need to be downtown is probably incorrect.
What I meant to say was that accessibility is more importhan to location. Any new terminal with O-train access will be better than the Catherine location.
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  #180  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 6:35 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
I don't think having the bus terminal downtown is all that important. It was to it before on Catherine, but no one would argue that the location was more accessible than any of the other possibilities along the Confederation Line.

Hurdman or Tremblay would be far superior to Catherine. Both present some interesting opportunities. Both would require a significant investment (guesstimate $20-30 million to improve Hurdman bus loop and concourse, or to convert part of the VIA station to a bus depot, and possibly build bus lay-bys and/or a bus loop).
First of all, I wouldn't really consider Catherine St. downtown and I totally agree that having it anywhere on the Confederation line will be a huge improvement.

As for the importance for having it downtown, it really depends who is using it. For intercity bus service, having it at the train station is a decent compromise and provides certain advantages. However, for commuter bus service, we really need to get our head out of the sand and have a longer term plan for for a commuter bus terminal downtown (which could double as an intercity station) now, while we can. The problem is the city isn't concerned about supporting the commute of people who don't live in Ottawa (which is understandable), yet the province seems to not be concerned about regional transportation in the backwater of Ottawa.

As discussed in the Rural Bus Network thread, this wasn't all that big of an issue before the confederation line was built, since the regional bus operators were allowed to use the Transitway to get downtown. Now that the transitway is gone, the options remaining are:
  1. Have the buses fight with traffic on the highways and streets, or
  2. Have riders pay twice (once to get to the nearest O-Train station and once to get the rest of the way downtown).
What is really needed is for the province to get involved, but I don't have any hope of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
The bus terminal should be at the train station and Tremblay O-Train service.

HOWEVER, how about in the urban wasteland at Terminal Drive, across from Walmart.
I'm not sure how good an idea that is. Getting buses to/from Terminal Ave. from the 417 is significantly more circuitous than Trembley Rd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
FINALLY open the under-track tunnel to pedestrian service, and animate both sides of the tracks (making the tunnel less sketchy) by having the bus station at the south end of the tunnel.
Opening the existing tunnel to the public won't be all that easy, as I gather it is too narrow to handle general pedestrian traffic in addition to the passengers boarding trains. A new over/underpass would be needed, which wouldn't be cheap.

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Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
Incorporate the station in the next tower planned for the site, with bus parking and loop around the north side of the tower.
Is there a tower planned for the site?
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