TD Coliseum | ? | 4 fl | Under Construction

[thistleclub]

just because you make something an open space doesn't mean people will utilize it.... It's a little TOO isolated up there - and the space is really just kinda unuseable. They should use it more for concerts imo. Set up a stage there, maybe have weekly charity concerts or something, sorta like the festival of friends. Maybe rebuild part of it to have some sorta arena seating. It would be the perfect space for a kinda outdoor odeon seating outdoor stage - you could then have an indoor arena and an outdoor stage.

Consensus on a plan would be challenging given the different leaseholders and stakeholders with varied priorities and operational time frames. Jackson Square is First Real Properties, around a third of the way into a 99-year lease. The arena has been operating on five-plus-one year lease cycles, and the Bulldogs’ tenancy agreement comes up for renewal every three. Then there’s the City Centre, whose third level also backs onto the rooftop plaza (and which has been sought by developer Brad Lamb for what would presumably be a substantial residential condo complex).

If I’m not mistaken, this area is a de facto fire route for adjacent towers, which presents additional challenges.

The biggest issue with amplified sound on the rooftop plaza, however, is the splash-and-slap you get from the ring of buildings at varied heights and angles. It’s a terrible place to stage live music, and having hotel and conference facilities directly off that area doesn’t help.

[drpgq]

One issue with building an OHL sized arena is the loss of the ability to host bigger concerts. Dierks Bentley was at First Ontario last night. Would he come anyways if the venue was smaller? First is big enough that it is a regional draw for entertainment acts for Hamilton and I think it would be unfortunate to lose that.

Also I would be curious to know the total rent the OHL is paying versus all the rest of the acts. I would think the gate revenue for last night's concert would be many times what one OHL game would be.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by drpgq

One issue with building an OHL sized arena is the loss of the ability to host bigger concerts. Dierks Bentley was at First Ontario last night. Would he come anyways if the venue was smaller? First is big enough that it is a regional draw for entertainment acts for Hamilton and I think it would be unfortunate to lose that.

Also I would be curious to know the total rent the OHL is paying versus all the rest of the acts. I would think the gate revenue for last night's concert would be many times what one OHL game would be.

This completely. Def Leppard is playing there soon, and they have had countless international acts play there. I live downtown and it is packed around downtown prior to, and following an event.

[Berklon]

Is the idea to build a smaller arena and get rid of FOC, or have them co-exist?

I agree that something the size of FOC is needed to attract larger concerts/events. I just don't think we need a new large size arena, but I'm will to accept one (or even a small one) if it's 100% privately funded.

[king10]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Is the idea to build a smaller arena and get rid of FOC, or have them co-exist?

I agree that something the size of FOC is needed to attract larger concerts/events. I just don't think we need a new large size arena, but I'm will to accept one (or even a small one) if it's 100% privately funded.

There won't be 2 arenas. There will be one or the other.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by king10

There won't be 2 arenas. There will be one or the other.

Then it's either a new NHL level arena 100% privately funded or no change at all. Not going to tear down FOC for a smaller arena.

[JakeLRS]

If we somehow manage to get ourselves a smaller arena, that is a big loss for the city in creating additional revenue. Additionally, surrounding businesses would lose business if we downsize since big concerts and events draws people to eat and sleep nearby.

FOC needs to get a massive renovation or be rebuilt (mostly private).

Also, how busy is the concourse when the arena is full with 17,000+ spectators? Scotiabank Arena (Formely ACC) is extremely crowded and they have 2 concourses (one for upper, one for lower bowls).

[king10]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Then it's either a new NHL level arena 100% privately funded or no change at all. Not going to tear down FOC for a smaller arena.

What makes you say that? The city doesnt want to maintain an nhl arena without nhl tennants. FOC needs $40m in basic rehab over the next 5 years which the city cant afford. The bulldogs do not want an nhl sized arena and the city cant afford it. There isn't a business case for a privately run NHL size arena with no major tennant as well as an OHL size arena in Hamilton.

All signs point to a public private partnership at an arena smaller(how much smaller still TBD) than the current 17.5k FOC. Bulldogs probably want something around 10k and they are willing to pay for half, with any luck global spectrum or carmens group will front some capital costs and the citys investment will be minimal. Would be great if the private sector owned it eliminating the need for the city to sink million in operating and capital upkeep.

Perhaps a best case scenario would be something similar to Winnipeg at around 15K seats, but if the bulldogs(Andlauer) are putting in half the money and they say its too big, it'll probably get chopped down.

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/9...-it-worth-it-/

Andlauer said last year he'd like to build a new, smaller OHL-sized arena and offered to split the estimated $60-million-plus bill with the city.

[HamiltonBoyInToronto]

It is really annoying that people keep downsizing things in Hamilton....we are a good sized city with a lot going for us ...the FOC needs to remain the same size and get a complete facelift...there should also be a mixed use component incorporated into the reno (condos and retail).... I think the only people that would want to see Hamilton lose its competitive edge by having a venue the size of FOC would be outsiders who are threatened by Hamilton....I've heard stories of business owners and corporations from Toronto and other cities doing some shaddy things in order to keep Hamilton on the down and out .... Suggesting that we lose FOC and build something smaller and somewhere other than downtown sounds like one of these conspiracies lol

[king10]

These are all great attitudes but who is going to front the bill for a $300 M to $500 M facility. Is there a business plan that can be made to recoup that money? I hope there is, just wouldnt bet on it. The realist in me based on what I have seen from major players says we’re going smaller than FOC. Hope im proven wrong.

[StEC]

Originally Posted by king10

These are all great attitudes but who is going to front the bill for a $300 M to $500 M facility. Is there a business plan that can be made to recoup that money? I hope there is, just wouldnt bet on it. The realist in me based on what I have seen from major players says we’re going smaller than FOC. Hope im proven wrong.

THIS is the business case to keep an NHL size arena! http://www.coreentertainment.ca/news...r-ranking-2018

Hamilton, Ontario (August 14, 2018) – FirstOntario Centre, managed by Spectra, was ranked the 58th busiest arena according to Pollstar’s 2018 Mid-Year Top 200 venues in the world and the 4th in Canada; ascending 48 spots from the 2017 Pollstar Year-End Rankings.

Rankings by Pollstar, a leading resource on the concert industry, are based solely on ticket sales of live events and concerts and do not include ticket sales to FirstOntario Centre’s tenant, the OHL’s Hamilton Bulldogs or some select events.

58th BUSIEST IN THE WORLD 4th IN CANADA! Let that sink in...

We lose the current capacity and we lose the big AAA concerts and events that bring people to our city's downtown hotels and restaurants! The city would cut off one of their best tourist draws and revenue generators!

Were also the only city that ever has mega acts such as BTS, Garth Brooks & Britney Spears perform 3 or 4 sold out shows in a row. No other city not Toronto or New York can ever claim that! What that does for our city is phenomenal!

It would be asinine to move the arena and or especially make it smaller!

[king10]

Originally Posted by StEC

THIS is the business case to keep an NHL size arena! http://www.coreentertainment.ca/news...r-ranking-2018



58th BUSIEST IN THE WORLD 4th IN CANADA! Let that sink in...

We lose the current capacity and we lose the big AAA concerts and events that bring people to our city's downtown hotels and restaurants! The city would cut off one of their best tourist draws and revenue generators!

Were also the only city that ever has mega acts such as BTS, Garth Brooks & Britney Spears perform 3 or 4 sold out shows in a row. No other city not Toronto or New York can ever claim that! What that does for our city is phenomenal!

It would be asinine to move the arena and or especially make it smaller!

Thats not a business case. Thats a listing of some big acts and how awesome it is for our city. A 10k arena would still bring awesome events to our city and downtown.

The arena barely breaks even now for global spectrum even with a sizeable annual operatinng subsidy from the city. Global spectrumcurrently makes a bit of money, the city loses money. If you build/ renovate an nhl new arena you have debt repayments to the tune of $300 -500million. The operations would be a massive money loser based on the current formula.

And that number you quoted is for concerts and events excluding the primary tennant. Its not the 4th busiest arena in canada. The 7 nhl arenas are ahead of it if you include the main tennant.

Again what is the business case for either the city or private company to sink 300 to 500 million into a new facility. They arent going to do it unless they can make money off of it. Its great that it gets some big shows, but is it profitable? Right now its not and thats before you even add repaying hundreds of millions of debt.

For refernce attached is documentation confirming the city subsidizes operations at the arena to the tune of $2.5M. This means that despite all the great acts you posted above and the bulldogs, the arena loses $2.5M a year.

https://pub-hamilton.escribemeetings...umentId=177081

[drpgq]

Originally Posted by king10

A 10k arena would still bring awesome events to our city and downtown.

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I have some skepticism towards this. First gets a fair amount of shows because Scotiabank arena has the Leafs and Raptors as major tenants and is incredibly busy during the winter months and can rarely accommodate multi-night events like BTS.

I think one could make a business case to be made for repairs amortized over a number of years. If I remember correctly, the city was losing more money during the tale end of the HECFI days back then they are losing now so the city has spent more money before. Plus the city seems willing to make the business case for putting money into Juno, CCMA and Grey Cup bids for what are one-off events, so the city putting some money each year towards upkeep of First Ontario doesn't seem outlandish.

[BCTed]

I would vote in favour of enhanced upkeep of the existing arena.

A 10,000 seat arena is just not the right size for Hamilton:

- It would still bring in a number of shows, but it would also certainly take Hamilton out of consideration for many, many large-scale events.
- It would also be arguably too large for an OHL team or even an AHL team, so it would hardly be a right-sizing for those groups.

A 5k to 6k arena is probably the proper size for the OHL, but I really hope that that sized building is not on the table.

A side note is that the current video scoreboard should be replaced regardless. It is of extremely poor quality/resolution and I am not sure if any other OHL arenas (much less NHL) have anything so lacking.

[king10]

Originally Posted by drpgq

I have some skepticism towards this. First gets a fair amount of shows because Scotiabank arena has the Leafs and Raptors as major tenants and is incredibly busy during the winter months and can rarely accommodate multi-night events like BTS.

I think one could make a business case to be made for repairs amortized over a number of years. If I remember correctly, the city was losing more money during the tale end of the HECFI days back then they are losing now so the city has spent more money before. Plus the city seems willing to make the business case for putting money into Juno, CCMA and Grey Cup bids for what are one-off events, so the city putting some money each year towards upkeep of First Ontario doesn't seem outlandish.

Councillors seem to be hinting the city should not be in the business of entertainment facilties. Some would like to see the private sector take over. Council seems to be prioritizing roads transit and social housing. I think they fear the backlash from constituents if their property taxes go up say $200-$300 a year to pay for an entertainment facility instead of core assets. This brings up a larger question, is a professional enterainment facility something tax payers should be subsidizing? Especially when our community centres, transit network, social housing stock and road network are in need of hundreds of millions in investment. An interesting question. There are pros and cons to both public ownership and private ownership.

Also yes the scoreboard needs replacing. That board was paid for by the bulldogs owner. Hed probably pay for a new one but hes waiting to see what the plan is for the new arena. If hes gunna put tens of millions into a new arena, no need sinking money into the current venue. I think the city is holding off on the $50 million in maintenance(not even upgrades) repairs needed on the arena until they know if theyre keeping it or building new. Hopefully the ice piping holds up so the bulldogs arent displaced! Sounds like the place needs more than a couple mil a year.

[thistleclub]

58th BUSIEST IN THE WORLD 4th IN CANADA!

By mid-year. 86th by year end (fifth in Canada).

Still up from 2017, but the business is cyclical (and this is solely based on ticket sales of live events and concerts).

10-Year Challenge:

In 2018, the FOC box office sold 201K tickets to concerts & family shows.
In 2009, the Copps box office sold 210K tickets to concerts & family shows.

FWIW, Spectra also manages London's Budweiser Gardens, which is about half the capacity of FOC, yet ranked 107th on Pollstar's 2018 chart (FOC was 106th in 2017). Here's the Spectra case study.

[SteelTown]

For me my dream proposal would be:

FirstOntario places becomes Hamilton's new flexible Convention Centre with extensive renovation.
Current Convention Centre sold to a developer to include retail and mixed income condos (sells out right away because of the transit terminal)
MacDonald high school property is the site of the new arena, with 15,000 seats with ability to expand to 20,000 or more to meet NHL standards.

[king10]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

For me my dream proposal would be:

FirstOntario places becomes Hamilton's new flexible Convention Centre with extensive renovation.
Current Convention Centre sold to a developer to include retail and mixed income condos (sells out right away because of the transit terminal)
MacDonald high school property is the site of the new arena, with 15,000 seats with ability to expand to 20,000 or more to meet NHL standards.

That would be great if it happened. I know carmens was eyeing that sir john A land for an entertainment precinct. Heard the public board may not want to sell though.

It seems the trend of nhl Arenas has gone towards the 17 to 18k range with more luxury options. Keep the ticket scarcity and prices up.

For example Ottawa has cut Capacity from close to 20k to under 18k. Winnipeg of course is at 15k. Rogers place in Edmonton is at 18.5k. Rinks built in the last 10 years in pittsburgh, jersey, vegas are in the 17k to 18k range(save for detroit). New arenas being built for seattle and the islanders are in between 17 and 18k.

Of course im not getting my hopes up that an nhl team comes to hamilton. Bettman has made clear he isnt interested and quebec city cant even get a team with a beautiful new arena and deep pocketed potential ownership.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by king10

That would be great if it happened. I know carmens was eyeing that sir john A land for an entertainment precinct. Heard the public board may not want to sell though.

It seems the trend of nhl Arenas has gone towards the 17 to 18k range with more luxury options. Keep the ticket scarcity and prices up.

For example Ottawa has cut Capacity from close to 20k to under 18k. Winnipeg of course is at 15k. Rogers place in Edmonton is at 18.5k. Rinks built in the last 10 years in pittsburgh, jersey, vegas are in the 17k to 18k range(save for detroit). New arenas being built for seattle and the islanders are in between 17 and 18k.

Of course im not getting my hopes up that an nhl team comes to hamilton. Bettman has made clear he isnt interested and quebec city cant even get a team with a beautiful new arena and deep pocketed potential ownership.

We should invent a new sport.

[SteelTown]

Council ratifies doing a study, with $200K in city $, to look at the future of Hamilton's downtown entertainment facilities (convention centre, FirstOntario Centre, FO Concert Hall). That includes whether they should be relocated, or in a cluster. Report back this summer

https://twitter.com/SamCraggsCBC