High Speed Rail Forum!

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I don't see why Ford throwing support behind HSR is something that would get him votes. He already has the rural areas of the southwest and those areas are against HSR. I don't know why all the support for HSR without any details being put out anyway. Like, how many trains a day, and how much for fares. VIA is mostly $50-75 each way to Toronto, other than the few really cheap seats and the pricier business class. What's HSR going to cost? $100 each way? Are people really going to spend a grand a week to go work in downtown Toronto just so they can live in London?

After they do Kitchener to Toronto, that will be the end of it, if they even do that line. Just doesn't make economic sense to go as far as London, let alone to Windsor. It is definitely a want, not a need, down this way. Now, if Ford wants to buy some votes with HSR, he will promise Toronto to Montreal. That actually makes sense and will gain him lots of votes in the GTA.

VIA Rail is already proceeding with a new rail line from Toronto to Montreal via Ottawa and Peterborough, that will cut down travel times between those cities (which is definitely needed). The province likely can't touch that corridor without running into problems with the federal government, so they're going to go with the next best option for a new rail connection.

I don't know why nobody seems to be aware of that VIA plan. And I still maintain that a lot of Torontonians are woefully unaware of how many people travel between London and Toronto all the time, and how that might grow as both cities grow. I highly doubt the government would be wanting to do this if they didn't see the future demand - London is one of the only areas of Ontario outside the GTHA or Ottawa that is forecast to see population growth beyond 2041. If this were an HSR line to, say, Kingston without any continuation to Ottawa or a line to Sudbury, I'd say there was a problem.

Pricing is a definite concern, but hopefully the province learned from the bungled UP Express launch.

[kaiserLDN]

I'm curious if you guys would support this idea.

2 passenger 2 freight rail tracks on the London Brantford Toronto line and 2 passengers 1 freight track on the London Kitchener line. The Kitchener line takes forever but if you reconfigured it and added tracks it becomes more efficient. These lines would have express trains that would bypass smaller stations at peak hours. This means its more within a budget. It would be cheaper and most likely get done faster then HSR. Once these Passengers rail lines start taking up capacity then build a bullet train. Also when shit hits the fan with whatever brings the province into a recession ( and at some point it will happen because history tells us it will ) this has a better chance of it still being built.

[Dupcheck]

The sad truth is, I think you need to slap a HSR sticker on these trains to make this shit stick with the main population, no matter what gets built.

[ssiguy]

Frankly I have never agreed with this line. I have never felt it was money well spent. The issue is that London needs fast connections to Toronto but this was announced as a vote buying grab in the last election with little real thought about whether it makes financial sense. Also anyone who thinks Londoners will get to Union within 75 minutes on this line is delusional. London to Union is 180km as the crow flies and this train will max out at 250kméhr but will now have 3 stops in between all relatively close together meaning time for stops and much lower speeds between those close stops.

If they were to simply improve the current line via Woodstock and build the Brantford northern bypass with a London non-stop Londoners would get to Union much faster using diesel trains that can run up to 200kméhr as they have been doing in the UK for decades. By doing so they could also get VIA onboard and help take away all the financial risk.

[go_leafs_go02]

The benefit with this proposal is the direct express connection to Pearson airport and the downtown.

VIA will continue to operate on the London to Toronto corridor via Brantford.

I like you have wondered if they'll have restore the Brantford bypass line that runs just south of St. George. It's a shame in some cases they've sold the old ROW and allowed houses to be built on them. I'd rather they be retained as transportation corridors and then converted to a multi-use trail, but allow the tracks to be put back in if the need exists down the road.

Heck, one of the options the province looked at for HSR west of London was to use the abandoned line that runs through West Lorne and then loop back up into Chatham and London at either end.

[Djeffery]

I honestly don't see the benefit of getting to Pearson on HSR from London. I think most people going to Pearson, if they are going to pay to take the fast train, will just pay to fly to Toronto and make their connection and at least benefit from London's shorter check in and security lines. But I imagine they won't be marketing that to London, it will be targeted at the KW crowd and since Londoners will be using the same train, we will be stuck with that stop.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I honestly don't see the benefit of getting to Pearson on HSR from London. I think most people going to Pearson, if they are going to pay to take the fast train, will just pay to fly to Toronto and make their connection and at least benefit from London's shorter check in and security lines. But I imagine they won't be marketing that to London, it will be targeted at the KW crowd and since Londoners will be using the same train, we will be stuck with that stop.

As someone who flies quite a bit for work, I disagree. I would much rather get on a train downtown than take a flight to Toronto and then take another flight. Small planes are crowded and uncomfortable to Toronto.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

As someone who flies quite a bit for work, I disagree. I would much rather get on a train downtown than take a flight to Toronto and then take another flight. Small planes are crowded and uncomfortable to Toronto.

Not to mention, the flights into/out-of London are always being delayed or cancelled due to weather or general bean-counting assholery of the airlines.

HALF the time I fly into/out of London, there is an issue/delay/cancellation.

[Dupcheck]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Not to mention, the flights into/out-of London are always being delayed or cancelled due to weather or general bean-counting assholery of the airlines.

HALF the time I fly into/out of London, there is an issue/delay/cancellation.

I have noticed that too.

[warpus]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

As someone who flies quite a bit for work, I disagree. I would much rather get on a train downtown than take a flight to Toronto and then take another flight. Small planes are crowded and uncomfortable to Toronto.

The London airport is also quite out of the way, while the high speed rail station would be right downtown. I fly out of Person at least once a year, and I would totally take a high speed train there. I have never even considered taking a cab out to London Airport and flying to Pearson from there. It's a lot easier just to jump on a Greyhound. Even before Greyhound made stops at Pearson, it was more convenient for me to take the Greyhound, get off at union station, take the subway to the 2nd last west stop (this was before the express rail link), and take the express bus route to the airport. If there is a high speed rail link between London and Pearson, I would probably use it every time I fly out of Pearson. It would just be so convenient

[Djeffery]

It's not like the HSR is dropping you off at the door to terminal 1. Likely it will be making a quick stop at the Malton GO station, and you get to take another bus to the airport from there. And then you get to deal with Pearson lines, instead of London lines. And not everyone will be starting out from downtown London.

And really, Greyhound to subway to city bus is more convenient than cab to airplane?

[warpus]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

It's not like the HSR is dropping you off at the door to terminal 1.

That's actually exactly what the plan seems to be

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by warpus

That's actually exactly what the plan seems to be

What is "actually exactly" about that? That hub is planned for the site where the ALT hotel is, across the 409 from terminal 1, next to the Viscount garage. You still have to take the terminal train from there. And you still have to check in and clear security, which you would already have done if you flew in.

[Innsertnamehere]

Phase 1 of HSR is going to have the station at Malton GO, actually, with a new people mover to bring you to the terminals.

[Stevo26]

Originally Posted by kaiserLDN

Yeah I think a big key is to pleasing majority of NIMBYs some how and to work with them. Some NIMBYS wont work with anyone like the lady living at the Wharncliffe CN bridge. I guess those ones you don't worry about. In the high speed rail case it sounds like the farmers were talking about things from noise to how there tractors get to the other side of the field if the field is split in half which are legit arguments.

Yes, they are legitimate arguments, but in all cases the problems HSR poses to farmers can be easily solved or at least substantially ameliorated.

Rather than calling for some half-arsed ersatz high-speed rail (AKA 'high-performance rail', as some call it) to address these concerns, the farmers and other rural stake-holders would be better off waiting until the studies are done and everyone knows precisely how they will be affected.

HSR in Ontario is long, long overdue. It is needed far more than its detractors would dare admit for the simple reasons that there is no more room to build new highways and Ontario's population is expected to almost double over the next 30 years, with most of that population eventually living in the GTA, the K-W area and London.

Arguing for 'high-performance rail' makes no sense anyway. It's the equivalent of saying London should totally abandon BRT and just improve London Transit service wherever it can, but expect high-quality service at the same time. The old rule, 'Cheap, fast or good, pick any two" applies. HSR is necessarily a 'fast and good' proposition if done right.

Southwestern and south-central Ontario are natural fits for HSR anyway. Just like central Europe, the southwestern portion of Ontario is characterized by a constellation of small, medium and large cities clustered fairly close together and with relatively high population densities.

[Dupcheck]

http://lfpress.com/news/local-news/high-...ting-ford-government?video_autoplay=true

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Dupcheck

http://lfpress.com/news/local-news/high-...ting-ford-government?video_autoplay=true

I have a bad feeling about HSR under a PC government. Doug Ford loves highways and subways, not those hippie pinko means of transportation.

[jammer139]

HSR was ALWAYS a long shot and a Liberal election ploy.

The current $20M study is still going ahead.

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I have a bad feeling about HSR under a PC government. Doug Ford loves highways and subways, not those hippie pinko means of transportation.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Doesn't help that urban London, where constituents are generally in favour of HSR voted NDP, while rural SWO where constituents are generally against HSR for land reasons are represented in the PC cabinet.

If this thing gets built at all, my bet would be only the Toronto to KW portion since it's along existing ROW. The portion to London would anger the rural base, and since London was heavy NDP territory not be worth the political capital, as well as actual capital.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I honestly don't see the benefit of getting to Pearson on HSR from London. I think most people going to Pearson, if they are going to pay to take the fast train, will just pay to fly to Toronto and make their connection and at least benefit from London's shorter check in and security lines. But I imagine they won't be marketing that to London, it will be targeted at the KW crowd and since Londoners will be using the same train, we will be stuck with that stop.

If the HSR were ever to be up and running, airlines would stop flying Toronto to London. Pearson wants to save slots and use them on more international service.

Also really depends on how service is set up. In France for example, Air France interlines with SNCF, your next "plane" from Paris could be a train. And in many countries rail services may offer a luggage free ride. For example, you check in your bags in London, and you don't see them again till your final destination. You'll get off at the hub and check in over there and then head to the terminal.