[Surrey] Century City Holland Park | 49m, 65m, 117m, 135m | 11, 19, 36, 42fls | U/C

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Metrotown competes far more directly with downtown Vancouver. I think it will be a long time before you see AAA commercial migrating South of Fraser. Surrey Central though is likely to become the downtown for more heavy industry in BC with a lot of industry vacating Vancouver.

Is there any city in history that has seen large AAA commercial space migrate out of their downtown core? I'm being serious here. They could be a time in the future where we see some of that in Surrey, Burnaby, or Richmond in limited amounts. But IMO it will always be a drop in the bucket compared to Vancouver.

[Blease]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Is there any city in history that has seen large AAA commercial space migrate out of their downtown core? I'm being serious here. They could be a time in the future where we see some of that in Surrey, Burnaby, or Richmond in limited amounts. But IMO it will always be a drop in the bucket compared to Vancouver.

Ever heard of Mississauga, the large and sprawling multicultural municipality, located on the outskirts of Toronto, which has always been popular with those looking for reasonably priced suburban sized houses and yards, but within commuting distance to Toronto. In recent decades the municipality sought to shed its suburban image and to that end built its own downtown. If this description sounds eerily similar to Surrey's relationship with Vancouver, it's not a coincidence and urbanologists have often compared Surrey's growth trajectory to Mississauga's. Distance wise, Mississauga is as far from dt Toronto as Surrey is from dt Vancouver. So in response to WarrenC12's question, let me quote directly from Wikipedia:

"Over 60 of the Fortune 500 companies base their Global or Canadian Head Offices in Mississauga. Some of the strongest industries are pharmaceuticals, banking and finance, electronics and computers, Aerospace, transportation parts and equipment industries.[36]

Citibank Canada has 2 corporate IT development centres in Mississauga. TD Bank Financial also has 3 Corporate IT development centres in the city along with Royal Bank of Canada. Microsoft Canada is also located in Mississauga. Laura Secord Chocolates is headquartered in the city, and Hewlett Packard's main Canada offices are also in Mississauga.[37] Air Georgian, a regional airline, is headquartered in Mississauga.[38] Air Canada Jazz operates a regional office in Mississauga and Kam Air has its North American office in Mississauga.[39][40] Mississauga is also an aircraft development hub with Canadian headquarters of Aerospace companies such as Magellan Aerospace and Honeywell Aerospace.[41] In addition Walmart Canada, Target Canada, kellogg's Canada and Panasonic Canada have their Canada head offices in the city.[42][43]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississauga

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Is there any city in history that has seen large AAA commercial space migrate out of their downtown core? I'm being serious here. They could be a time in the future where we see some of that in Surrey, Burnaby, or Richmond in limited amounts. But IMO it will always be a drop in the bucket compared to Vancouver.

I don't honestly know. Migrate out probably not. Cities are growing in general not shrinking so more likely you'd see "expansion" outside of a downtown core. So like Seattle --> Bellevue . Seattle isn't losing AAA to Bellevue, Bellevue is simply an expansion in the region. That's likely what will happen with Vancouver as our population grows and people in general migrate.

You're spot on though unless something drastic and I mean disaster level here happens in the region, Vancouver will always carry the high-end commercial space simply due to prestige and quite frankly location. I may think there are many pretty areas of metro-Vancouver but downtown Vancouver is to me by far still the most picturesque areas of the entire region. Heck if I wasn't from the region with family ties and history and moved to Metro-Vancouver, if money wasn't an object I'd want to live downtown in a heartbeat above anywhere else even my beloved Surrey.

If you're a business looking for AAA it's your first choice more often than not. My wife's work picked waterfront in downtown largely because of the views and as a consulting firm appearance is a big seller.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by Blease

Ever heard of Mississauga, the large and sprawling multicultural municipality, located on the outskirts of Toronto, which has always been popular with those looking for reasonably priced suburban sized houses and yards, but within commuting distance to Toronto. In recent decades the municipality sought to shed its suburban image and to that end built its own downtown. If this description sounds eerily similar to Surrey's relationship with Vancouver, it's not a coincidence and urbanologists have often compared Surrey's growth trajectory to Mississauga's. Distance wise, Mississauga is as far from dt Toronto as Surrey is from dt Vancouver. So in response to WarrenC12's question, let me quote directly from Wikipedia:

"Over 60 of the Fortune 500 companies base their Global or Canadian Head Offices in Mississauga. Some of the strongest industries are pharmaceuticals, banking and finance, electronics and computers, Aerospace, transportation parts and equipment industries.[36]

Citibank Canada has 2 corporate IT development centres in Mississauga. TD Bank Financial also has 3 Corporate IT development centres in the city along with Royal Bank of Canada. Microsoft Canada is also located in Mississauga. Laura Secord Chocolates is headquartered in the city, and Hewlett Packard's main Canada offices are also in Mississauga.[37] Air Georgian, a regional airline, is headquartered in Mississauga.[38] Air Canada Jazz operates a regional office in Mississauga and Kam Air has its North American office in Mississauga.[39][40] Mississauga is also an aircraft development hub with Canadian headquarters of Aerospace companies such as Magellan Aerospace and Honeywell Aerospace.[41] In addition Walmart Canada, Target Canada, kellogg's Canada and Panasonic Canada have their Canada head offices in the city.[42][43]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississauga

Yah that came to mind but Warren's point I think is did those businesses migrate out of Toronto? Or did they simply choose Mississauga. AKA was it Toronto shedding AAA commercial space and that space migrating to Mississauga?

I'd find it more likely that it is simply an expansion of that AAA space to the suburb but without seeing statistics I'd be surprised if Toronto didn't add more new space than Mississauga in the same period of time.

I do think that could happen with Burnaby, Surrey, and possibly areas of Richmond in the future where if 1 or more become prominent with some big names you may see new companies headquarter in the suburbs rather than downtown.

You could see some migration of businesses themselves at some stage, say Finning International from downtown to Surrey Central seeing as the bulk of their business is actually focused out in the valley. But that space wouldn't vanish it would be taken pretty quickly. I'd call that an expansion of space rather than a migration of space personally.

Migration to me is when you lose something at the origin.

[Blease]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Yah that came to mind but Warren's point I think is did those businesses migrate out of Toronto? Or did they simply choose Mississauga. AKA was it Toronto shedding AAA commercial space and that space migrating to Mississauga?

I'd find it more likely that it is simply an expansion of that AAA space to the suburb but without seeing statistics I'd be surprised if Toronto didn't add more new space than Mississauga in the same period of time.

I do think that could happen with Burnaby, Surrey, and possibly areas of Richmond in the future where if 1 or more become prominent with some big names you may see new companies headquarter in the suburbs rather than downtown.

You could see some migration of businesses themselves at some stage, say Finning International from downtown to Surrey Central seeing as the bulk of their business is actually focused out in the valley. But that space wouldn't vanish it would be taken pretty quickly. I'd call that an expansion of space rather than a migration of space personally.

Migration to me is when you lose something at the origin.

Below is a direct quote from the financial post. (905 refers to the area code for Toronto's outlying municipalities of which Mississauga is by far the largest)

"since 1990, Toronto has lost 100,000 jobs, whereas the 905 region has gained 850,000 jobs"

I think it's fair to presume at least some of the 100,000 jobs that Toronto lost went to the 905.

Full article here

http://www.financialpost.com/story.h...b5&k=18326&p=1

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Blease

Below is a direct quote from the financial post. (905 refers to the area code for Toronto's outlying municipalities of which Mississauga is by far the largest)

"since 1990, Toronto has lost 100,000 jobs, whereas the 905 region has gained 850,000 jobs"

I think it's fair to presume at least some of the 100,000 jobs that Toronto lost went to the 905.

Full article here

http://www.financialpost.com/story.h...b5&k=18326&p=1

That doesn't mention what type of jobs. Could be manufacturing and retail that make the bulk of jobs lost.

[Cypherus]

A bit off topic you guys.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Blease

Ever heard of Mississauga, the large and sprawling multicultural municipality, located on the outskirts of Toronto, which has always been popular with those looking for reasonably priced suburban sized houses and yards, but within commuting distance to Toronto. In recent decades the municipality sought to shed its suburban image and to that end built its own downtown. If this description sounds eerily similar to Surrey's relationship with Vancouver, it's not a coincidence and urbanologists have often compared Surrey's growth trajectory to Mississauga's. Distance wise, Mississauga is as far from dt Toronto as Surrey is from dt Vancouver. So in response to WarrenC12's question, let me quote directly from Wikipedia:

"Over 60 of the Fortune 500 companies base their Global or Canadian Head Offices in Mississauga. Some of the strongest industries are pharmaceuticals, banking and finance, electronics and computers, Aerospace, transportation parts and equipment industries.[36]

Citibank Canada has 2 corporate IT development centres in Mississauga. TD Bank Financial also has 3 Corporate IT development centres in the city along with Royal Bank of Canada. Microsoft Canada is also located in Mississauga. Laura Secord Chocolates is headquartered in the city, and Hewlett Packard's main Canada offices are also in Mississauga.[37] Air Georgian, a regional airline, is headquartered in Mississauga.[38] Air Canada Jazz operates a regional office in Mississauga and Kam Air has its North American office in Mississauga.[39][40] Mississauga is also an aircraft development hub with Canadian headquarters of Aerospace companies such as Magellan Aerospace and Honeywell Aerospace.[41] In addition Walmart Canada, Target Canada, kellogg's Canada and Panasonic Canada have their Canada head offices in the city.[42][43]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississauga

Are you serious?

IT? Logistics? Manufacturing?

As for downtown Mississauga, this submarket has consistently been on the bottom for performance over the past 15 years. It can't compete with cheaper office parks. Proof that taxes are grossly overrated when it comes to suburban flight.

[w34lth]

Not sure if this is the correct place to post.

I noticed some minor construction while driving by Holland park.

Any idea what's going on?

[Urbanmetro]

They are building two basketball courts at the West end of Holland Park. I think that's what you are referring to.

[Flynn86]

With 3 Civic Plaza on it way and all most topped off has there been any talk about this project starting up or they just going to wait till 3 Civic Plaza is done.

[osirisboy]

This and civic 3 are the same builder?

[Flynn86]

The same developer

[BobLoblawsLawBlog]

Does anyone know why that area is called Holland? It's such a pretty word.

[LeftCoaster]

There's a large park right next door called Holland Park.

No idea why the park is called that though.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

There's a large park right next door called Holland Park.

No idea why the park is called that though.

It is named after Alice Holland, whose family owned the original pioneer homestead on the land that is now the park. Alice sold the land to the city for a song as long as it remained a park.

[GMasterAres]

I'd imagine they will wait until 3 Civic is complete. Century Group isn't a massive development company that can do multiple big projects at the same time. And it would be rather silly to compete with themselves right now until 3 Civic is completed and filled.

Also they would be competing with The Hub across the street which is leasing/selling phase 2 of their project which includes office space and retail space. Heck Coast Capital (Phase 1) isn't 100% leased out quite yet.

They still have it up on their site with a fairly new rendering, and all the 3 Civic renders that shoot South show "Holland Point" completed, so I'd say it is very much still in play.

If I provided an educated guess I would say we won't see any real movement for a couple more years (2-3 maybe?). I'd be really surprised if we hear anything big in 2017 about it unless The Hub phase 2 completes major leasing really soon and starts construction in the Spring.

[Nites]

Haven't seen this render before



From the Century website

[Cypherus]

Originally Posted by skymaster

Did they change the design again or is this a completely different complex? It's titled as "Holland Gardens"



From the Century website

No the design appears to be intact as per old Google Earth placeholders seen below. However, the tower appears a bit shorter with the facade glass updated.


-

[Nites]

To my estimate it's going to be around 40 floors and 150 meters.