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  #1761  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2017, 2:42 AM
Jetlanta Jetlanta is offline
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Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17 View Post
I consider myself an open-mind person and I'm always willing to hear all sides of an issue. What I don't understand with this particular subject are the overly negative reactions to what I think is a reasonable opinion.

I live in a part of the Atlanta Metro area that is especially dependent on Delta's success, so my comments aren't an indictment against them. Just as well, my comments should not be taken as an indictment on the city of Atlanta. The entire metro area depends on the success of the city and the last thing I want to see happen is for it to fail.

That being said, I guess what I'm getting at is all I've heard in response to my criticism that Delta is responsible for exacerbating the situation are people trying to justify why they're doing it. What I don't get it (as no one has explained) is how does any justification alleviate their responsibility in exacerbating the situation?

BTW, I can't speak on the exact number of Delta's flight distribution today in comparison to 20 years ago, but what I do know is that in that same span of time, Delta has significantly consolidated their flight operations by completely shuttering or significantly shrinking their other major hubs across the country (much more so than the other big airlines). These flights that once were going to now shrunken or shuttered hubs had to go somewhere (ATL).
How did they exacerbate a situation if they've been operating the same, normal operation they've run for 20+ years? Thats what I don't understand.

And your last paragraph is just completely untrue. 20 years ago Delta had a major hub at ATL, much smaller hubs at Cincinnati (CVG), Dallas/Ft. Worth (DFW) Salt Lake City (SLC) and a very small international hub at New York City (JFK). Today it has ATL, major hubs at Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP), Detroit (DTW), and significant hubs at Salt Lake City (SLC), Los Angeles (LAX), Seattle (SEA) and NYC (JFK AND LGA).

As I said earlier the level of ops at ATL is unchanged over the past 20 years. All of the growth has come from larger airplanes, not more flights.

I get your point. I promise I do. I just don't think is grounded in fact.
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  #1762  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2017, 9:53 AM
skyscraperpage17 skyscraperpage17 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jetlanta View Post
How did they exacerbate a situation if they've been operating the same, normal operation they've run for 20+ years? Thats what I don't understand.

And your last paragraph is just completely untrue. 20 years ago Delta had a major hub at ATL, much smaller hubs at Cincinnati (CVG), Dallas/Ft. Worth (DFW) Salt Lake City (SLC) and a very small international hub at New York City (JFK). Today it has ATL, major hubs at Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP), Detroit (DTW), and significant hubs at Salt Lake City (SLC), Los Angeles (LAX), Seattle (SEA) and NYC (JFK AND LGA).

As I said earlier the level of ops at ATL is unchanged over the past 20 years. All of the growth has come from larger airplanes, not more flights.

I get your point. I promise I do. I just don't think is grounded in fact.
As far as the bolded, my understanding is that CVG had well over 200 flights per day back in the early 2000s, and is not down to about 85-90 flights today. BOS is in a similar situation, having lost a significant number of daily flights. Even DTW and MSP have lost over 100 flights per day since the NWA merger. For example, I can't speak for MSP, but I do know DTW always has a ton of capacity that's underutilized on a typical day while Delta's busying lining up a ton of airplanes on the tarmac in Atlanta where they can't build additional gate fast enough to handle the traffic.

Also, the Memphis and Dallas hubs (both operating well over 200 flights per day) were shuttered completely.

It's not about what they've able to squeeze through Atlanta, but that they have a disproportionate amount of their operations reliant on one airport compared to the other airlines and leave themselves suspectible to disruptions much more so than the other airlines, which makes situations such as the recent power outage far more severe than they should be.
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  #1763  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2017, 2:15 PM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17 View Post
As far as the bolded, my understanding is that CVG had well over 200 flights per day back in the early 2000s, and is not down to about 85-90 flights today. BOS is in a similar situation, having lost a significant number of daily flights. Even DTW and MSP have lost over 100 flights per day since the NWA merger. For example, I can't speak for MSP, but I do know DTW always has a ton of capacity that's underutilized on a typical day while Delta's busying lining up a ton of airplanes on the tarmac in Atlanta where they can't build additional gate fast enough to handle the traffic.

Also, the Memphis and Dallas hubs (both operating well over 200 flights per day) were shuttered completely.

It's not about what they've able to squeeze through Atlanta, but that they have a disproportionate amount of their operations reliant on one airport compared to the other airlines and leave themselves suspectible to disruptions much more so than the other airlines, which makes situations such as the recent power outage far more severe than they should be.
Some of us are passive aggressively under our breath calling you the stupid one (I mean that in the fondest way possible), but in reality with are the dumb ones for arguing with someone that clearly is not going to change their mind. Still...I...can't...help...myself!

Let's give another real world example that mirrors what you said in your last paragraph.

Say for example you live in Downtown Atlanta and unfortunately your job of 5 years is in Suwanee f'en GA. Given Gwinnett County's "caveman mentality" you are forced to drive because mass transit is not an option. You have two options: (1) the Connector to 85 which is very congested but still the most efficient way or (2) all back roads with less traffic, but it takes twice as long and you use 2 x the gas (and are single handily causing global warming - thanks S-17).

So for 5 years you travel the Connector to 85 and make it to work everyday on time (Gold star for S-17). Unfortunately last Thursday, two teenagers high on Crystal Meth cause a 12 car pileup on 85 and you are 2 hours late for work.

Are YOU at fault for being late for work last Thursday because you took the Connector and 85; when you should have been taking the back roads and leaving your house twice as early and paying twice as much for gas (and killing the planet), because you should have anticipated this happening?

OR

Are the two teenagers high on Crystal Meth the cause for you being late for work?

So in my example, the two teenagers high on Crystal Meth would be "GA Power", driving the Connector and 85 to work is equivalent to how Delta currently load balances their flights to their hubs and driving the back roads from Downtown Atlanta to Suwanee is equivalent to how you think Delta should load balance their flights to their hubs.

In my example, you have a 5 year track record of always making it on time to work driving on the most congested highway, but still managed to reduce your gas expenses and limit your carbon footprint. So are you saying just because two dumb MF'ing teenagers high on Crystal Meth "GA Power" causing an accident ONE day would mean you would going forward take the back roads to Suwanee?
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  #1764  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2017, 3:07 PM
echinatl echinatl is offline
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To expect that Delta should not use their leased space at the airport as efficiently as possible doesn't make sense. No matter how much you post about it you're just not going to change opinions. You made your point, and then people you don't know on the internet disagree with you, why keep it going
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  #1765  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2017, 3:20 PM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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Originally Posted by echinatl View Post
To expect that Delta should not use their leased space at the airport as efficiently as possible doesn't make sense. No matter how much you post about it you're just not going to change opinions. You made your point, and then people you don't know on the internet disagree with you, why keep it going
Serious question - I am curious why you felt the need to post your comment and essentially continue to perputuate the debate, but you think it is foolish for others to do so?
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  #1766  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2017, 5:27 PM
Jetlanta Jetlanta is offline
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Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17 View Post
As far as the bolded, my understanding is that CVG had well over 200 flights per day back in the early 2000s, and is not down to about 85-90 flights today. BOS is in a similar situation, having lost a significant number of daily flights. Even DTW and MSP have lost over 100 flights per day since the NWA merger. For example, I can't speak for MSP, but I do know DTW always has a ton of capacity that's underutilized on a typical day while Delta's busying lining up a ton of airplanes on the tarmac in Atlanta where they can't build additional gate fast enough to handle the traffic.

Also, the Memphis and Dallas hubs (both operating well over 200 flights per day) were shuttered completely.

It's not about what they've able to squeeze through Atlanta, but that they have a disproportionate amount of their operations reliant on one airport compared to the other airlines and leave themselves suspectible to disruptions much more so than the other airlines, which makes situations such as the recent power outage far more severe than they should be.
Again, you have a basic misunderstanding of the dynamics here. I'll preface this by saying that I actually do what we call Air Service Development for a living. What we are talking about is what I do every day. I say that only in hopes that it provides some credibility for what I am about to explain below.

You are correct that Delta downsized a few hubs bother pre- and post- merger with Northwest. DFW was closed because it was an economic disaster and Delta was on the road to Chapter 11. There was not an alternative course of action here and it had nothing to do with putting all the eggs in the ATL basket. American Airlines and Southwest Airlines simply dominated the Metroplex market and Delta had no ability to compete give the economic environment.

CVG and MEM were closed after the merger because DTW and ATL were simply better hubs that accomplished the same network functions. Their scale was too small and their local markets were not big enough to support hubs in the evolving competitive environment.

But those resources DID NOT go into ATL. Those resources instead were focused on other major initiatives. Delta organically built hubs at SEA, LAX and LGA that are strategically and economically for more important than CVG and MEM could ever be. Additionally, Delta has grown dramatically in RDU and BOS, both of which are now larger than CVG. Delta will take possession of five more BOS gates over the next three year, so more growth can be expected there. In addition, JFK has gone from about 75 daily flights to about 225 over the past decade.

DTW and MSP have actually pretty much maintained their relative positions in terms of size and scope. You are making a common mistake in analyzing the size of the operation. You are using number of flights instead of capacity. As Delta has phased out 50-seat regional jets and replaced them with 76 and 110 seat aircraft, it has reduced the number of overall frequencies in those markets in order to maintain relative capacity discipline, but overall seats are pretty stable.

No airline is going to grow a hub simply because there is gate space available at various points in the day. That is economic suicide. MSP and, particularly, DTW are limited by competitive forces and the local economic environment. The Detroit economy took a huge shock and has grown more slowly than Atlanta ever since. Additionally, DTW (a primarily east-west flow hub) competes for the same traffic flows as many other regional hubs, including ORD, MDW, DEN and MSP. ATL's only significant competition from a network perspective is CLT. All of this combined puts a cap on the amount of growth that DTW can economically support. That has nothing to do with ATL.

ATL has fantastic geography for a hub (able to do east-west very effectively, but really dominates the high volume north-south corridor. Additionally, Atlanta has strong population and economic growth as well as a mix of employment industries that are far more travel-oriented than Detroit's.

Delta currently has about $8 BILLION in airport investment underway in markets other than ATL. ATL is the engine that makes Delta go, but Delta's reliance on ATL has actually shrunk dramatically since the NW merger and will continue to do so into the future.
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  #1767  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2017, 1:04 PM
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Libertarian Libertarian is offline
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Jetlanta and others, I'd like your comments re what I heard from a senior Delta person at a dinner this past Friday.
1) Delta is preparing a negligence civil lawsuit against ATL and Ga Power.
2) LGA for years has been trying to extort from Delta and others to build out MTA to LGA.
3) Delta European gateway is JFK. ATL-Europe nonstops are LHR CDG AMS DUS. ATL-East Asia nonstops are ICN PVG NRT. ATL and JFK are nonstop Caribbean and Mexico tourist gateways.
3) Delta believes their greatest business (safety, political) risk to be gateways (counterparties) with whom they partner worldwide. They'd love a "new paradigm" but what would it be? Maybe Musk as CEO would find a taxpayer-subsidized fix (just kidding).
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  #1768  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2017, 3:29 PM
jpk1292000 jpk1292000 is offline
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Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
Jetlanta and others, I'd like your comments re what I heard from a senior Delta person at a dinner this past Friday.
1) Delta is preparing a negligence civil lawsuit against ATL and Ga Power.
2) LGA for years has been trying to extort from Delta and others to build out MTA to LGA.
3) Delta European gateway is JFK. ATL-Europe nonstops are LHR CDG AMS DUS. ATL-East Asia nonstops are ICN PVG NRT. ATL and JFK are nonstop Caribbean and Mexico tourist gateways.
3) Delta believes their greatest business (safety, political) risk to be gateways (counterparties) with whom they partner worldwide. They'd love a "new paradigm" but what would it be? Maybe Musk as CEO would find a taxpayer-subsidized fix (just kidding).
That list of ATL to Europe nonstops is incomplete. Madrid, Frankfurt, Manchester, Rome and others?
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  #1769  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2017, 5:22 PM
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You're right, ATL-FRA and Munich and Milan are nonstops as I recall, the rest are one stops mainly at JFK.
Edit: Just checked, Milan is now one stop. Looks like there are also a couple of weekly nonstops to Rome. Manchester has three weekly nonstops.

Last edited by Libertarian; Dec 24, 2017 at 5:39 PM.
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  #1770  
Old Posted Dec 25, 2017, 4:05 PM
Jetlanta Jetlanta is offline
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Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
Jetlanta and others, I'd like your comments re what I heard from a senior Delta person at a dinner this past Friday.
1) Delta is preparing a negligence civil lawsuit against ATL and Ga Power.
2) LGA for years has been trying to extort from Delta and others to build out MTA to LGA.
3) Delta European gateway is JFK. ATL-Europe nonstops are LHR CDG AMS DUS. ATL-East Asia nonstops are ICN PVG NRT. ATL and JFK are nonstop Caribbean and Mexico tourist gateways.
3) Delta believes their greatest business (safety, political) risk to be gateways (counterparties) with whom they partner worldwide. They'd love a "new paradigm" but what would it be? Maybe Musk as CEO would find a taxpayer-subsidized fix (just kidding).
This sounds about right. I wouldn't take the JFK as European Gateway statement literally, though. While it is true that JFK is Delta's biggest European gateway and the primary growth engine for new routes to Europe, ATL is still a huge and important European operation.

In July 2018, the peak of the US-Europe market, Delta will 21 daily flights from ATL to Europe with 37,000 daily seats to 16 destinations.

At JFK, Delta will operate 27 daily flights with 44,000 seats to 23 destinations.

For perspective, here are the Top 3 transatlantic gateways:

UA/EWR 48000 daily seats
DL/JFK 44000
DL/ATL 37000
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  #1771  
Old Posted Dec 25, 2017, 4:12 PM
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I didn't realize EWR was the biggest European gateway. Given a choice between EWR and JFK, it makes sense.
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  #1772  
Old Posted Dec 25, 2017, 5:51 PM
Jetlanta Jetlanta is offline
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Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
I didn't realize EWR was the biggest European gateway. Given a choice between EWR and JFK, it makes sense.
It's the biggest single carrier (United) hub. JFK is a far larger transatlantic gateway when all airlines are included.

Last edited by Jetlanta; Dec 26, 2017 at 1:05 PM.
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  #1773  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2018, 12:46 AM
smArTaLlone smArTaLlone is offline
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Last edited by smArTaLlone; Jan 21, 2018 at 12:49 PM.
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  #1774  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 2:36 AM
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NY media discovers the homeless problem at ATL
It may be time for the state to take control of the airport. I don't think Mayor Bottoms has the personality to deal with this type of problem.
Delta is not happy!
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  #1775  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 4:18 AM
ATLMidcity ATLMidcity is offline
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Unread Posted Today, 9:36 PM
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NY media discovers the homeless problem at ATL
It may be time for the state to take control of the airport. I don't think Mayor Bottoms has the personality to deal with this type of problem.
Delta is not happy!

WOW - Mayor Bottoms ain't up for the job. Please elabo!!
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  #1776  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 11:50 AM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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Video of the Terminal Canopy Construction

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/955243848682364939

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  #1777  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 1:13 PM
Street Advocate Street Advocate is offline
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Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
NY media discovers the homeless problem at ATL
It may be time for the state to take control of the airport. I don't think Mayor Bottoms has the personality to deal with this type of problem.
Delta is not happy!
I disagree. Based off her campaign alone, this sounds exactly like something she’d want to come up so she can move forward with her affordable housing plans and hopefully a collaboration to end homelessness in Atlanta.
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  #1778  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2018, 5:46 PM
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Everybody agrees that there's a housing problem...but homeless people clogging up the airport atrium isn't the way to deal with it. You're going to "kill the goose that laid the golden egg" ie Delta. The homeless should be rounded up every couple hours and bused to a nearby shelter, given a warm meal and a place to sleep. I've heard anecdotally that people are avoiding Atlanta. Bottoms better get a grip. It got out of control when the cops were stopped from enforcement, which as I understand it started when she took office.
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  #1779  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 6:46 PM
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Sensationalist reporting at its worst. There is no "homeless problem" at ATL.
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  #1780  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 8:12 PM
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There certainly was a problem last week, especially evenings. Marta is a convenient conduit to the airport. What's worse is seeing people sleeping directly on the sidewalk on cold nights. Someone I spoke with this am who works in areas of south Atlanta said what's really disturbing is that some of these individuals don't even want to seek help.
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