Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[locolife]

Originally Posted by ucsbgaucho

I was just in Phoenix last week for a work conference so I was downtown for 3 days, unfortunately the Suns were playing on the road so I didn't experience any gameday crowds, but downtown Phoenix is a pretty dead place to begin with. It's very close to Chase Field for the Diamondbacks; they've built some kind of a small "entertainment district" between the two, but it's not much... it's mostly surrounded by parking lots and garages, it's on the outer edge of downtown so it doesn't seem to have spurred any development as of yet. Phoenix is a bit weird as it's such a big city but the downtown is almost an afterthought; it's not the beating heart of the city.

As of yet... the D'Baks stadium is 26-years old. I don't see any clear conclusive data that stadiums really don't spur tons of development, San Diego may be one of a few exceptions and I don't even know how clear that correlation is. But I don't want the D'baks or Suns to ever leave downtown, that is the right location for them to be, just like the NBA/NHL should be in DT SLC imo too. San Diego residents we're very unwilling to fund a football stadium for the Chargers. If they we're that sold on the success stadiums/arenas bring I'm pretty sure that wouldn't of been the case.

By the way where did you think an entertainment district is in Phoenix? There isn't one so I'm curious where you may have went. Roosevelt Row is the best spot to go to, it's about 2 blocks north of the CC. There will be a lot more happening in downtown Phoenix once the projects tied to the 7 cranes you saw currently up down there get finished.

[ucsbgaucho]

Originally Posted by locolife

As of yet... the D'Baks stadium is 26-years old. I don't see any clear conclusive data that stadiums really don't spur tons of development, San Diego may be one of a few exceptions and I don't even know how clear that correlation is. But I don't want the D'baks or Suns to ever leave downtown, that is the right location for them to be, just like the NBA/NHL should be in DT SLC imo too. San Diego residents we're very unwilling to fund a football stadium for the Chargers. If they we're that sold on the success stadiums/arenas bring I'm pretty sure that wouldn't of been the case.

By the way where did you think an entertainment district is in Phoenix? There isn't one so I'm curious where you may have went. Roosevelt Row is the best spot to go to, it's about 2 blocks north of the CC. There will be a lot more happening in downtown Phoenix once the projects tied to the 7 cranes you saw currently up down there get finished.

San Diego got very lucky with Petco Park, the vote happened about a month after their 1998 trip to the World Series. I bet without that successful season, they wouldn't have passed it. The problem with the Chargers is the owner is one of the poorest in the league, they put several ballot measures for vote that all failed partly because of existing payments the city was still making on Qualcomm Stadium, increase of 3% in hotel tax, and opposition from Comic-Con and other big groups. Also, several studies came out about the long-term costs of the stadium rising into the $2-3 billion range. The measure also was deemed to need a 2/3 vote to pass.

Also, seems like my wording of "entertainment district" in PHX was too strong; the area between the two stadiums seems like mainly parking garages with a Caesars sportsbook and some bars and restaurants built at ground level.

[Atlas]

I have updated the SLC Wikipedia page with a new skyline shot taken yesterday, taken from exactly the same angle as the old one.

Old:



New:


Salt Lake City - Skyline Update by Astro-magi, on Flickr

[Nebula3lem123]

^I'm an infamous Astra booster, but I will admit that from that specific angle, it doesn't stand out very well. I personally prefer the views from ~10th E & 5th S or further up on campus at the U, as the Astra stands out as taller than the rest, and even closely matches the LDS office building

[RC14]

Both Astra and Worthington look really cool from the area around the Main Library. IMO

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by ucsbgaucho

I was just in Phoenix last week for a work conference so I was downtown for 3 days, unfortunately the Suns were playing on the road so I didn't experience any gameday crowds, but downtown Phoenix is a pretty dead place to begin with. It's very close to Chase Field for the Diamondbacks; they've built some kind of a small "entertainment district" between the two, but it's not much... it's mostly surrounded by parking lots and garages, it's on the outer edge of downtown so it doesn't seem to have spurred any development as of yet. Phoenix is a bit weird as it's such a big city but the downtown is almost an afterthought; it's not the beating heart of the city.

This is pretty true, it is a bit weird. Downtown Phoenix isn't the beating heart quite yet. There are several scattered areas around the metro with heightened activity, like Roosevelt Row, north-central Phoenix, Kierland and City North area, Old Town Scottsdale, DT Tempe, etc., so downtown feels small and dead for a city as large as Phoenix. It's kind of like LA on a much smaller scale. LA is so enormous, if downtown LA was the beating heart of that region, it would be a massive crazy busy downtown. As it is, it's relatively quiet (relative to itself and the region's size) because there are so many other nodes and spots that draw people. I got the feeling in SLC that downtown and Sugarhouse were the only focused areas of entertainment for the whole area, which can be good (DT Ogden was pretty cool, but it felt too far, I doubt many people in Salt Lake City looking for something to do will consistently plan a night out in Ogden).

Believe it or not, Downtown Phoenix is much more lively than it ever used to be, like 10x as much, and is less of an overall afterthought than it used to be (95% of everyone used to go to Scottsdale or Tempe for entertainment, but that's definitely shifted more downtown Phoenix). I don't know exactly where you went, but if you stayed immediately at the CC, by Chase Field, and Footprint Center, and it was a Monday or something, I can see why you'd think that it was totally dead. Even a couple blocks away at CityScape would have been a bit better for you. However, as LocoLife mentioned, up north on Roosevelt it is more lively, and we just need to wait another couple years when the dozen-ish towers and other projects around downtown add even more to the mix.

I think it's a bit like when I was in SLC almost 2 years ago now. The only time we went downtown was on a Sunday (went also to Sugarhouse beforehand to go to a specific store my sister-in-law wanted to take my wife), and several places downtown were just simply closed that we tried to go eat at. I bet if a Jazz game was going on it would have been much better.

[airhero]

Sunday in Salt Lake is terrible. Though I was downtown last Sunday and the one before and saw a surprising number of people out and about. Maybe due to some spring fever. But there's not much to do. DT Phoenix was quite active the one time I visited, but I was there for a convention.

I don't think it's rare for downtowns to feel dead. It seems most the time I visit a downtown in the US it feels that way. Probably depends on if you're there during an event or not. But seems like most cities are more active in the neighborhoods just outside of downtown. DT San Francisco, for example. I have limited experience, but that downtown seems sad. Lots of really cool neighborhoods around it though. DT Houston, in my experience, is dead. DT Miami at street level is disappointing, but lots of cool areas to visit in and around and above Miami. Even Chicago can be quiet but many great, active neighborhoods in Chicago.

A decent one in my experience is Philadelphia. Lived in the area for a summer and have been back many times. Always pretty active day and night.

Outside of New York, though, in the US, I've never been to a downtown or even more active neighborhoods outside downtown where I think, wow this is bustling. Maybe for brief moments in specific places, like Pike Place Seattle, New Orleans Bourbon Street, Ocean Drive South Beach at night. Americans seem confined to their cars and suburbs compared to other places.

As for Salt Lake, downtown is the center of activity here. And given that information, it is a bit disappointing, but it's okay. I think it's gotten better and will continue to. It can be really fun at night.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by Atlas

I have updated the SLC Wikipedia page with a new skyline shot taken yesterday, taken from exactly the same angle as the old one.

Old:



New:


Salt Lake City - Skyline Update by Astro-magi, on Flickr

Cool update, do you know what the difference in time is? Was the only one 2012 and new one is 2024? My untrained eye counts 3 additional towers but just sliding up and down on browser. CCH, Astra and the one to the right of Astra that's kind of grey. Is that right?

[Rileybo]

Good update for the wiki, thanks.

Astra looks like a second Church Office Building.

[zurich]

Originally Posted by airhero

Sunday in Salt Lake is terrible. Though I was downtown last Sunday and the one before and saw a surprising number of people out and about. Maybe due to some spring fever. But there's not much to do. DT Phoenix was quite active the one time I visited, but I was there for a convention.

I don't think it's rare for downtowns to feel dead. It seems most the time I visit a downtown in the US it feels that way. Probably depends on if you're there during an event or not. But seems like most cities are more active in the neighborhoods just outside of downtown. DT San Francisco, for example. I have limited experience, but that downtown seems sad. Lots of really cool neighborhoods around it though. DT Houston, in my experience, is dead. DT Miami at street level is disappointing, but lots of cool areas to visit in and around and above Miami. Even Chicago can be quiet but many great, active neighborhoods in Chicago.

A decent one in my experience is Philadelphia. Lived in the area for a summer and have been back many times. Always pretty active day and night.

Outside of New York, though, in the US, I've never been to a downtown or even more active neighborhoods outside downtown where I think, wow this is bustling. Maybe for brief moments in specific places, like Pike Place Seattle, New Orleans Bourbon Street, Ocean Drive South Beach at night. Americans seem confined to their cars and suburbs compared to other places.

As for Salt Lake, downtown is the center of activity here. And given that information, it is a bit disappointing, but it's okay. I think it's gotten better and will continue to. It can be really fun at night.

I think many downtowns need to be completely reimagined - Salt Lake is one of them. I am not drawn to a downtown because of tall buildings, one story convention centers and concrete...quite the opposite. Many people want parks, trees, trails, museums, entertainment, restaurants, bars, etc all within walking distance. When I am in New York, I remember places like central park, the MET.. .Paris, around Notre Dame, the river areas, the museums. I just hope this new entertainment district incorporates some of this thinking into their design. I also hope it ties into the green loop. I think there is enough land to create more of a promenade type area with a long narrow park like they have in Barcelona, with large trees... outdoor dining.. things like that. I think it will also be an easy sell, if you can tell the public they are investing in new public spaces... not just buildings and retail.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by ucsbgaucho

San Diego got very lucky with Petco Park, the vote happened about a month after their 1998 trip to the World Series. I bet without that successful season, they wouldn't have passed it. The problem with the Chargers is the owner is one of the poorest in the league, they put several ballot measures for vote that all failed partly because of existing payments the city was still making on Qualcomm Stadium, increase of 3% in hotel tax, and opposition from Comic-Con and other big groups. Also, several studies came out about the long-term costs of the stadium rising into the $2-3 billion range. The measure also was deemed to need a 2/3 vote to pass.

Also, seems like my wording of "entertainment district" in PHX was too strong; the area between the two stadiums seems like mainly parking garages with a Caesars sportsbook and some bars and restaurants built at ground level.

Oh yeah, that's just filling a ballpark bar/restaurant space, there is nothing happening in that area of downtown unless there's a game. And it's not an entertainment district by any means. Just a single space.

If you come back let us know and we'll point you in the right direction. This is true in most cities, I've found completely dead zones in every major town.

[bflatflat9]

Originally Posted by locolife

Cool update, do you know what the difference in time is? Was the only one 2012 and new one is 2024? My untrained eye counts 3 additional towers but just sliding up and down on browser. CCH, Astra and the one to the right of Astra that's kind of grey. Is that right?

And 95 State and Liberty Sky.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by bflatflat9

And 95 State and Liberty Sky.

I think 95 State is the third one I didn't have the name for. I think I can see Liberty Sky hidden behind a taller one. so 4 bigger towers between the 2 photos?

[Atlas]

You can also just barely make out Worthington behind Liberty Sky.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by Atlas

You can also just barely make out Worthington behind Liberty Sky.

Oh yeah... I kind of see a bit of it there. Is this about a 12 year difference in time?

[Comrade]

Salt Lake's downtown is pretty small, which can be to its benefit.

Most cities have a Central Business District, where nearly all the development is office-oriented (with some minor retail and maybe residential) and then an area for entertainment.

But because Salt Lake's downtown is quite small, the entertainment area often bleeds right into the CBD, which amounts to basically Main and State.

There's a good amount of bars on Main Street and that also happens to coincide with the area that has some of the larger office buildings.

That's not common in a lot of other cities with bigger downtowns.

[Orlando]

Seattle has multiple buildings for their convention center that are multi-level. Their original one spans over Pike Street and connects over the freeway I-5 with a park/lid. The new addition is more than a block away and is like 3 or 4 levels.
There are some obvious disadvantages of splitting convention floor spaces like this, but it's still an interesting example of how to integrate one into a dense urban setting.

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by locolife

Cool update, do you know what the difference in time is? Was the only one 2012 and new one is 2024? My untrained eye counts 3 additional towers but just sliding up and down on browser. CCH, Astra and the one to the right of Astra that's kind of grey. Is that right?

That's about a 10 year time gap. I believe that older one was taken about 2013. There are 6 new towers in that newer photo.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by Orlando

That's about a 10 year time gap. I believe that older one was taken about 2013. There are 6 new towers in that newer photo.

Thanks for the timeframe confirmation and count.

[bob rulz]

Thanks for the Wikipedia skyline pic update! It was much needed.

Originally Posted by airhero

Sunday in Salt Lake is terrible. Though I was downtown last Sunday and the one before and saw a surprising number of people out and about. Maybe due to some spring fever. But there's not much to do. DT Phoenix was quite active the one time I visited, but I was there for a convention.

I don't think it's rare for downtowns to feel dead. It seems most the time I visit a downtown in the US it feels that way. Probably depends on if you're there during an event or not. But seems like most cities are more active in the neighborhoods just outside of downtown. DT San Francisco, for example. I have limited experience, but that downtown seems sad. Lots of really cool neighborhoods around it though. DT Houston, in my experience, is dead. DT Miami at street level is disappointing, but lots of cool areas to visit in and around and above Miami. Even Chicago can be quiet but many great, active neighborhoods in Chicago.

A decent one in my experience is Philadelphia. Lived in the area for a summer and have been back many times. Always pretty active day and night.

Outside of New York, though, in the US, I've never been to a downtown or even more active neighborhoods outside downtown where I think, wow this is bustling. Maybe for brief moments in specific places, like Pike Place Seattle, New Orleans Bourbon Street, Ocean Drive South Beach at night. Americans seem confined to their cars and suburbs compared to other places.

As for Salt Lake, downtown is the center of activity here. And given that information, it is a bit disappointing, but it's okay. I think it's gotten better and will continue to. It can be really fun at night.

I think it's mostly because, as Comrade said, downtowns are usually split into entertainment districts and CBD's. A lot of places that are considered "downtowns" are the CBD, which means they're dead after 6 or 7, especially now in the post-Covid days with WFM really taking off. But yeah, car dependence and suburban living is definitely a big part of it too.